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Heart Palpitations Forum
http://palps.chemicalforums.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl Heart Palpitations Forum >> Symptoms and other concerns >> Here's a Question for All of You http://palps.chemicalforums.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1277865767 Message started by RLR on Jun 29th, 2010, 7:42pm |
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Title: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Jun 29th, 2010, 7:42pm How many of you operate a car or ride in one on a daily basis? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Jun 29th, 2010, 9:39pm I guess that will be just about all of us. Count me in as a yes. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bexy1984 on Jun 30th, 2010, 12:16am yep every single day .... acually about 4 times a day ..school run!!!!! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Dickyboy199 on Jun 30th, 2010, 1:43am Hi RLR, Nice to hear from you. Sorry it's been a long time since I've been on here. Yes I drive a car everyday during the week I commute 64 miles in total to work and a few miles at the weekend. Please would you be able to look at the results I posted a couple of days ago as I was told that Apical Hypertrophy is not normally associated with exercise and is nearly always a form of HCM (usually the Japanese version) Thanks for your help Best wishes Rich |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Jun 30th, 2010, 3:11am No I walk everywhere, or take the bus. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Jun 30th, 2010, 4:02am I think RLR will relate this to cars having intermittent faults but we still use them, carefree, ie our bodies / palps and life. I could VERY well be completely wrong though - wont be the 1st time :) Perhaps the seating position??? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Jun 30th, 2010, 4:10am I drive a car every day. I did answer your questions on your replies to my posts. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jun 30th, 2010, 9:40am I am in a car almost daily and often more than once. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Stav98 on Jun 30th, 2010, 10:10am Long daily car drives here. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Ella on Jun 30th, 2010, 11:00am I'm in my car everyday. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Jun 30th, 2010, 11:54am Below is a statistical chart of leading causes of death. Note that Motor Vehicular Accidents ranks #1 along with heart disease. Your perception of risk from heart disease is one that could be classified as extremely high risk, based upon your concerns about symptoms, ie palpitations. Your risk of death from a car accident is equally as great, yet there is no perception of this relative risk as being pertinent at all. You have no greater control over your risk of a fatal car accident than you do experiencing some type of cardiac event as a consequence of the palpitations, but one literally consumes your attention while the other is all but non-existent. Statistically, either circumstance has equal risk of occurring and yet it draws no equal concern and vigilence. So the next part of my question is to explain to me specifially how this is possible? Using whatever platform you choose, please explain why you see these equally potential risks to your life as clearly resting on opposite ends of the spectrum by comparison to your vigilence and concern. Best regards and Good Health TEN LEADING CAUSES OF HEALTH-RELATED DEATH (1) Heart Disease (2) Malignant Neoplasms (3) Cerebrovascular Disease (4) Accidents & Adverse Effects (5) Pneumonia (6) Atherosclerosis (7) Mental Disorders (8) Senility Without Psychosis (9) Diabetes Mellitus (10) Embolism & Thrombosis TEN LEADING CAUSES OF ACCIDENTAL DEATH (1) Motor Vehicles (2) Falls (3) Drowning (Nontransport) (4) Fires & Flames (5) Poisoning, Solids & Liquids (6) Medical Misadventures (7) Firearms (8) Natural & Environmental (9) Water Transport (10) Machinery, Cutting & Piercing |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Kalah on Jun 30th, 2010, 12:32pm For me I would have to say it was a control issue. At least in a car you have the sense that if something bad happens, there is something you can do about it... try to swerve out of the way, or wear your seatbelt to reduce the chance of injury. But if your heart is out of whack, you're out of control and there's the perception that you could die in your sleep or drop dead and there's nothing you can do about it. In reality, by getting your checkups and keeeping your health up you are 'putting on the seatbelt' and really lowering your risk of anything bad happening to you. But it's harder to perceive in the immediate sense, I guess. I don't know if it's about perceived control to everyone else, but that's how it was for me. Also, the kind of anxiety I deal with is in defiance of rational thought... it's very hard to battle it with logic. That's not to say that logic doesn't help... it does, but for me, it's not the sole or even necessarily the key tool, I also have faith, and I make an effort to keep my stress levels down through behavioral means. I inherited this tendency toward anxiety, and I don't think I'll ever be rid of it forever, but I do my best to keep my dragon tamed. :) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Jun 30th, 2010, 12:52pm Without reading Kalah's reply (I don't want to be swayed by her no doubt correct reply :) ) I would say that we / I, would see the feelings of skipped / missed heart beats as pretty much a near miss of something bad happening, ie heart stopping, or symptoms not stopping, dread etc. I guess if we were to have this many NEAR misses everytime we got in a car etc them we would soon have a high degree of anxiety specifically related to that too, in fact I bet we would have a heck of a lot more people walking to work etc pretty soon ;) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Jun 30th, 2010, 3:24pm I would have to agree that it is a control issue. Even though you can't control the other driver, you feel that you have some sense of control with your car. I think the anxiety that I experience with all of its symptoms from tachycardia, from loss of weight because I can't eat enough, sometimes feelings of unreality, and just being hyper all the time makes you feel that you don't always have control over the anxiety. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Jun 30th, 2010, 4:03pm Now we're getting somewhere. Let's continue to discuss this comparative analysis a bit more and see what arises from it. I'll make my point once we've collected enough responses. Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jun 30th, 2010, 5:18pm I haven't really read your replies in detail but you all seem to agree there is an issue with control and how the fact that we are not in control is an issue. I will reserve my comments on this and explain my own situation in the best way I can and see where it leads me. 5B455B090 wrote:
Firstly I would just like to note that my fears about my heart being the cause of my symptoms is not nearly as strong as they once were. I also know to the best of mine and my doctors knowledge that the cause of my symptoms is entirely unrelated to my heart. Anyway, on with the post. The question posed is: why are we so fearful that we have problems with our hearts yet we are not in the slightest bit scared of getting in our cars and going for a drive, when both are equally likely to be the cause of our death? Well, right now I don't know, but I'm hoping by the end of this thread I will have some idea. First I must ask myself a couple of questions. First: "why am I scared?" and second "how did this fear begin?". To answer these as simply as possible, the reason I am scared is because I developed symptoms that I didn't understand with the most important organ in my body. I immediately thought of the worst possible outcome (for me, heart attack) and suddenly became fearful that this was going to happen to me at some point in the near future. I had no medical basis upon which to form such an eventuality; however, I associated chest pain with heart attack and thus my fear began. The original symptom which catalyzed my fears was not even a 'heart' symptom; merely chest wall pain. As I worried more and more the symptoms became worse: palpitations, racing heart, more chest pain which was stronger and more severe than before and I developed other symptoms such as dizziness, trembling and tingling. I then started believing I had some major problem with my body and my fear worsened. As for the second part of the question: why am I not fearful of having a car crash? I actually don't know the answer; perhaps I should be and maybe I will develop an anxiety disorder over it, but I doubt it. I have never had a car crash or even a near miss so I have nothing upon which to base a fear. Now, if I had been in a car crash, I may very well have the same fears that I do about my body. The fact is, something 'happened' to me that I believed to be symptoms of pathology when they weren't. If a car crash 'happened' to me, I would more than likely develop a similar fear and I would probably avoid using a car for as long as I could. I'm just that sort of person. There are people who wouldn't think twice about getting back in a car and likewise, there are people who wouldn't think twice about the symptoms we 'suffer'. To end I would like to ask a question of my own: why are some people worriers and others don't care? I'm sure there are many people who actually have heart disease who don't have the levels of anxiety that the users of this forum have. Why is it that some people develop strong fears of things they don't have and others who actually have them, who never feared them to begin with, still don't fear them even when they have them? I look forward to your response, George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Jul 1st, 2010, 12:57am Good questions George, I've had a couple of car crashes - not that I am a bad driver mind! ;) usually people go in to me. One crash was quite bad and I was VERY lucky to walk out of it with just a few knocks. Now I have been an anxious person for most of my life and the crashes did affect me in a way at the time, I was replaying the event in my mind very frequently over the few weeks that followed, much like most of us do now with palps and anxiety, but after a time and when I continued driving without another crash, the repetitive thoughts faded away more and more until I didnt really think of it at all - it took quite a while to get to that stage. Looking back, if I had obsessed about it, stopped driving and getting in cars then it could easily have become a problem / phobia for me, but as per normal I got on with life instead, not driving didn't seem like an option at the time. I guess that is where we can get stuck with palps, let it run riot and it certainly will. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Regarding why some people have anx and others don't. Well my mother had it and I certainly think I have it as a learned response from her, I've had this in some form for as far back as I can remember, like being really wound up when it was my turn to read in class (8year olds) etc, much more than regular kids - so it can be learnt, I don't think you can be born with it though. and I know that although I probably learnt it, it is me that is perpetuating it, nobody else, so it is me that has to stop it too. It doesn't always have to be learnt from someone though, we can have our own event then run with it ourselves, ie initial palps, followed by worry, more palps, more worry etc etc There is a formula for getting away from anxiety, and just about every top book etc says exactly the same thing in a slightly different way, but it's easier said than done - you have to UNLEARN anxiety. And you do this by - Gaining knowledge about your symptoms etc so you know what they are and are not so afraid. You need to stop obsessing and filling the day with everything anxiety related, like researching symptoms etc etc (you probably know what I mean) ie studying anxiety. You then need to fill your life with things you like doing, like hobbies etc this is basically a distraction. ie studying good things Notice all the negative talk going on inside your head and then try to logically disagree with it, ie CBT. Exercise will help to use up excess adrenaline, so is always a good addition. There is more, but I had better stop there ::) Sorry I have rambled again, but hopefully some of it is of use George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Jul 1st, 2010, 3:02am Amazingly, I do have a phobia about being a passenger in a car. I'd rather walk or bus it. I do of course have to go in a car, but I feel anxious the whole time. I developed this about 20 years ago and have some theories as to why. I guess my fear with the palps is waining since I came to this forum. I am not quite where I would like to be, but it seems like a journey I am on, and that somehow reading here is gradually helping me heal from and deal with the stress that caused it. For me, it is not the palps I need to tackle; my energy needs to go into sorting out the reason for the stress. Before the palps, I only ever felt anxious twice before. First time was when I found out I had/have a blood disorder. At the time I was diagnosed with a terminal condition. The diagnosis was wrong, although no-one bothered to tell me for almost 15 years. The second time was when I had uterine fibroids and because of my condition coupled with heavy bleeding I did fear bleeding to death. I had long term stress for the past 3.5 years and became depressed. Then the palps, IBS and dizziness. That's when the anxiety started. Now I am what I would call anxious, and I pray that I can fight my way back. Interestingly for 11 days, I have had only 1 or 2 palps a day, after 11 months of them being 100's a day. The ones I am getting right now are positional (when I bend or lift or lean to my left side). On saying that, today I have my echo and I feel anxious (plus I will be a passenger in a car) so I may kick them off today but, at least I will know why I have them. I do wonder why some people are prone to anxiety and some not. I would say there is more than one answer. There are different schools of thought on this, some say it is learned behaviour and that we learn from our parents or others how to react to situations. Some think its genetically inherent and then there are those who think its a combination of both those factors. Then there are degrees of post trauma, and the whole concept of anger and other emotions turned inwards, only to manifest as anxiety. There has been huge therapeutic success with that type of anxiety. I have known people who suffered trauma either physically or psychologically and have been left with severe anxiety. Equally, I have known as many people who have come from stable, virtually worry free backgrounds, and yet are severely anxious. Its very individual, and I am sure if you were to analyse yourself or your history, you'd come up with your own answer EDIT: Sorry I think I did not answer the question: Quote:
For me who has fear of both, I would answer the same as Jothenurse, its about feeling out of control, but for me in both situations. 1: Someone else in the driving seat (control) and 2: my heart/nervous system seeming to be out of my control |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Dickyboy199 on Jul 1st, 2010, 9:42am Yes I agree with everyone else. Even though my daily drive to work is 32 miles on the motorway at fast speeds I never worry about accidents. I am in control of the car and although there is a possibility that someone else could cause the accident or something could happen to the mechanics of the car to cause one, it's not really something you think about. Whereas the hearts unpredictability leaves no sense of control whatsoever so this leads most of us on here to think that anything could happen! I can see where you are going with this. Rich |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Jul 1st, 2010, 10:54am Okay, we're getting some excellent responses here to the extent that I can make my brief point. When we climb into our vehicles, we feel competent to the extent that risk of harm is subdued and the competence extends to the belief that we can react in the event of a potential or imminent accident. Realize that based upon the statistics I provided from the institute of safety, car accidents rank number one in death by vehicular accident. So that would tend to suggest that accidents are not as predictable as one might think and not nearly as preventable as one's confidence might preclude. Otherwise, its ranking would be much farther down the list. The reality of this premise sets in when you pause to consider how many times you drive your cars, or alternatively ride as a passenger, and pass the time between destinations by thinking of other things besides the true risks posed by interaction with other drivers on the roads and highways. So the premise of control is based more upon belief and not actual experience or competence. The reason that some things produce imminent fear and others don't has to do with a phenomenon known as personal fable. It is basically the overdrawn attenuation of fear of risk because the effects and consequences are latent in context. In other words, risk is devaluated because it is too distant. The most common example of personal fable is the use of tobacco. People understand that the risks associated with use of tobacco are long-term and therefore, they don't believe that they are at any degree of risk at any given time. They view all the statistical data more as propaganda and scare tactics, being unmotivated to alter their habits in that regard. In other words, the consequence must be very proximal to the activity itself for people to abstain and this type of response set is hard-wired into all humans. Consider that if the palpitations presented no outward symptoms but your doctors told you that they could present you with some problems later in life, most of you would put it out of mind and if predisposing risk behaviors were associated with the prominence of palpitations, most of you would likely be unconcerned. The notions that benign palpitations produce imminent risk is likewise a personal fable, but literally on the opposite end of the spectrum, where the effects and potential consequences are immediate and very proximal. Whereas death by car accident rarely, if ever, crosses the minds of persons who drive daily to and from their destinations due mostly to distraction, the palpitations present the sufferer with imminent fear of catastrophic outcomes. In fact, this influence is so powerful that it can literally demotivate many individuals to pursue the day with ambition. So the point here is that all such matters are strictly born out of perceptions based upon one's relative competence and accurate understanding of any risk. The statistical risk of death by car accident is far from number one on anyone's list because they feel capable of successfully intervening should the circumstances arise. They possess a false sense of safety because they are in control of their automobile to some extent. Yet, death by car accident is nevertheless number 1, so the facts prove one's own perceptions to be grossly inaccurate. Benign palpitations demonstrate a rather inverse relationship due to prioximal effect and the nature of the circumstances. You perceptually believe that since the palpitations are at the very least a disruption to the normal performance of the heart and that the consequences by your knowledge range specifically within the context of life-threatening, your response set and fear is elevated often to its highest levels and priority. From your rationale, you observe people traveling the highways in their cars literally on a daily basis, rarely if ever observing an accident wherein death results. By that same rationale, you are not exposed to daily circumstances where people suffering from benign palpitations do not suffer any actual harm. You have no direct association from an experiential standpoint. The statistical facts show car accidents to be a number one cause of death by accident and by contrast, the evidence to support any single commentary or discourse of mortality associated with benign palpitations is all but non-existent. In fact, little attention at all is given to the phenomenon of benign palpitations because there is benefit to be gained from the standpoint of intervention. While they certainly pose an emotional liability, they are indeed harmless in all respects and therefore are incapable of attracting funding or research to identify interventional techniques. So the facts are laid out before you and it's certain that all of you rest on the side of complacency regarding one risk while maintaining the highest degree of vigilence to another, with the profound realization that your priorities of concern are inversely related. How can that be? If you insist that your approach to concerns about your heart health are logical and justifiable, then how can such a polarized and inverse relationship exist? So are your concerns authentic and based upon facts or are they falsely based upon perceptions? Are you immobilized in many instances by the direct proximity to danger you feel with the palpitations as opposed to potential death by car accident? Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jazzmynn on Jul 1st, 2010, 10:07pm My concern about this issue is that unlike palpitations happening several times out of the blue and startling us, car accidents don't occur to an individual as often. Therefore, a person wouldn't necessarily be obsessed with a car accident because it is not as frequent as a palpitation. There is not a feeling associated with it. Even knowing nothing harmful is happening to your heart does not dismiss the fact that, the feeling of a palpitation can be very uncomfortable and anxiety provoking. You have some degree over a car accident ocurring, whereas with a palpitation your control is pretty much nil. Knowing the palpitation will not kill or hurt you is one thing, the fact that it feels terrible and can interrupt what you are doing is another. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Jul 2nd, 2010, 12:59am Good points. If you think of palpitations like a moderate toothache, one that is not really that painful, but niggles away for a long time, then it always brings you down and you lose interest in the fun things in life. Thats how I see palpitations when you get over the fear side of them. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Jul 2nd, 2010, 3:27am I do get what RLR is demonstrating I think. Perhaps this is to help those who fear they will drop dead when its happening. One can lose the fear of them coming, but the hard part is to lose the fear when they are happening. I am not sure if what RLR might be getting at is that it is that fear and anxiety that fuel these things to continue, but that the fear is irrational, or illogical. I do agree that fear of eminent death is not the only worry, and the feeling of them being around and spoiling things is left after the fear has been tackled and of course they do drag you down, just as a toothache does as you say Jason. But, I have to believe the answer/help lays within and not only must we get passed the fear, but also address what started them off. Perhaps general anxiety, or stress. First though, I do think we have to really believe deep down that no harm will come to us...that is hard when we are having a nasty run of them I agree. I have been virtually palp free for 12 days, unless I have any today. I say virtually as I have had the odd one. yet, I still feel a little anxious. But, I did change a few things in my life and am really working on what caused my stress. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Jul 2nd, 2010, 4:25am I think I understand what RLR is trying to explain. I do think it is hard though when the tachycardia that I get is happening to not feel anxious. But I think it is helpful to know it is not harmful. When you are in a car and if you felt anxious about a car accident, you could always get off the road and the anxiety would be gone. You can't always stop the tachycardia as fast or know what will stop it as easily. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Jul 2nd, 2010, 4:34am Okay, here's the kind of example I wish to highlight. It's very critical to examine it here for purposes of illustration. jazzyman responded: My concern about this issue is that unlike palpitations happening several times out of the blue and startling us, car accidents don't occur to an individual as often. Therefore, a person wouldn't necessarily be obsessed with a car accident because it is not as frequent as a palpitation. There is not a feeling associated with it. Even knowing nothing harmful is happening to your heart does not dismiss the fact that, the feeling of a palpitation can be very uncomfortable and anxiety provoking. You have some degree over a car accident ocurring, whereas with a palpitation your control is pretty much nil. Knowing the palpitation will not kill or hurt you is one thing, the fact that it feels terrible and can interrupt what you are doing is another. The aspect of perspective narrows and focuses one's beliefs. For people who have suffered a major car accident but have never experienced palpitations, their own perspective and beliefs might be entirely opposite. Jazzyman states that accidents don't happen as often because of personal experience, yet the statistics prove them to be the #1 cause of accidental death. The question to raise here is what is the occurence of benign palpitations across the population? In other words, how often do they happen to people by comparison to our example of fatal car accidents? The assertion that similar obsession would not occur with car accidents versus palpitations and that no physical feelings or symptoms is associated with fear of death by car accident is again, clearly belief established on perspective. For people who have suffered a major car accident, driver or passenger, the exact same fear that is being established toward ones' health can manifest in these instances as well. People have no control over accidents which cause their death. If they did, the outcome would be obvious. It is a belief arising from confidence and personal experience that one can avoid such a risk, when in fact the statistics based upon actual occurrences prove different. You can't avoid a fatal accident if you're unaware that it's going to be fatal. People establish their own beliefs where this is concerned, very often through some type of experience or observation. If they at some point in time avoid a collision, they may describe the event as escaping potential death, when in fact they really have no evidence to support the claim. The actual outcome is unknown, but they believe their premise to be certain. This perspective based on experience is very contributory to one's beliefs. In fact, there is as little control over a fatal car accident as there is potentially with the aspect of benign palpitations. Now my point here is certainly not to hold jazzyman's response up to the light as erroneous, for many if not most people hold the very same belief patterns. If you read the response, it is very direct and appears to be based upon confidence in its accuracy. It is a strongly stated opinion being asserted as accurate from one's own set of beliefs. I'm trying to get all of you to understand that the influences which guide your perceptions and beliefs manifest the "truth" upon you as you see it. You must come to understand that perspectives are developed upon certain criteria that can change based upon experiential and intellectual intervention. People who experience benign palpitations and other physical symptoms that are misunderstood establish belief patterns in this very same manner and they are most often extremely rigid and resistent to change. They have developed a perspective very much like Jazzyman's perspective concerning any relative circumstances about fatal car accidents. The other aspect I want to point out is that Jazzyman's intepretation is also based upon the generality of car accidents and not fatal car accidents. This type of universality is very common in all humans and it plays a major role in how you elect to interpret experiences and establish subsequent beliefs. It is indeed true that in many instances, a person may well be able to avoid minor car collisions but there is absolutely no link whatsoever between this ability and the capacity to avoid a fatal car accident. The person who establishes this belief can indeed even create mental imagery that would suggest otherwise, based upon generality. People who experience benign palpitations create this same generality and their inquiry into the matter quickly spills over into any and every variety of arrhythmia as being similar. In other words, their own palpitations could represent any one of hundreds of pathological variants based upon their generality of the matter. They become convinced that this approach is logical because the mind practices it on a daily basis. It feels natural to make these assumptions and therefore, they feel accurate. There is indeed some element of control over the aspects which cause benign palpitations. You must first come to realize that your perspectives about the phenomenon are indeed in question. Let the discussion continue. Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Jul 4th, 2010, 2:13am Without a doubt much if not all the continued effects of benign palpitations is perpetuated by our distorted belief systems. You know I can get up 1 day have a few palps and still feel on top of the world, back to normal me. Then the very next day I might get up, have the same few palps but become fixated on them, depressed and end up havign a bad day with lots of continuous palps. My body hasnt changed, but my perspective has. I think the realization that palps are not going to kill us but are a nuisance instead takes are anx leveldown a few nothes, but the fact that these palps remain, like a moderate toothache is what keeps dragging us down all the time, and this is the bit I am struggling to eliminate. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Jul 4th, 2010, 4:35am RLR - is the perspective on tachycardia and palps the same we would have on our other symptoms of anxiety? (feelings of unreality, lightheadedness, loss of appetite, shakiness). Meaning that because these are not dangerous either, but our focusing in on them and being frightened by them, makes them more intense and stay with us? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jul 4th, 2010, 1:41pm 595C475B565D46414056330 wrote:
Hi Jo, From my own experience I would say yes, focusing on something as dynamic as this can make it happen. For over a year now my chief symptom has been an increase in heart rate and coincidently, it is the one that I have worried about the most. I'm usually not tachycardic anymore and I couldn't tell you what my average heart rate is anymore because I never bother to check it. My problem is, I can't seem to 'let it go' and just forget about it for more than a few hours. I am constantly thinking about my heart in a negative way and consequently, I am always somewhat aware of it and it is constantly being forced to increase in rate. A good example to demonstrate my case would be the following: A couple of years ago I had a colonoscopy procedure performed as a day case patient. I was feeling a little nervous beforehand (this was way before any anxiety disorder had started) and was uncomfortable being in the skimpy robes I was given. I had to get on the bed and was wheeled in to the theatre where I saw all the equipment that was going to be used on me and suddenly I felt my heart going, my stomach was churning (butterflies) and I was actually scared. The nurse clipped the heart rate monitor on my finger and when I looked up at the machine I could see number that was changing between 130 and 132 which was obviously my heart rate. She looked at me and said 'nerves?' and I actually laughed and said 'yeah'. Not once was I concerned with that heart rate. It didn't bother me in the slightest, didn't cause me to become even more anxious nor did it start a spiralling downward flood of negative thoughts. It was what it was... a fast heart rate because I was quite scared of what was about to be done. I never even gave it a second thought as soon as she pulled the monitor off my finger. The doctor then sedated me to the point where I fell asleep for most of the procedure, I woke up feeling a little dizzy and was let out about 2 hours later. The nurse didn't mention my heart rate again. Several months ago I went in to the emergency room because of a perianal abscess that was causing extreme pain to the point where I couldn't walk. I was given painkillers and a bed in a side room where a colorectal surgeon came to examine me. My heart rate was around 120 during my time in A&E (even slower than before my colonoscopy) yet this heart rate was extremely worrying. To make it worse, it wouldn't slow down either. For hours it was staying up there at 120 and they even thought it was necessary to give me an ECG and get a cardiologist down to see me, which made me feel worse. Needless to say, I had the ECG and no cardiologist came to see me. A while after I was put on an overnight ward where another colorectal surgeon came to examine me (he was the one who would be performing the removal of the abscess). I asked him about my heart rate and he checked my wrist pulse and made no comment. Then, when his colleague came in to watch, he said to himself as he was writing something down: "tachycardia... anxiety" which was when I thought to myself "not another doctor telling me it's just anxiety". Of course I will never know for sure why it wouldn't slow down, but I think it is fairly obvious. So here are two very similar situations where I have had very similar symptoms, yet in one of them I was completely obsessed over them while in the first, I never had a second thought and they disappeared as quickly as they came on. I don't know what sequence of events transpired between these two times but somewhere along the line something happened which caused me to be extremely concerned to the point of obsession, over a completely normal body function which subsequently led to the constant continuation of said symptoms. I don't actually know how I'm going to stop thinking this way, but I think I will find a way in time. Good luck, George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Jul 4th, 2010, 4:22pm I know how that goes. I had a very rapid heart beat when they were going to do a stress test and I got so scared that I ended up in the ER on a monitor, oxygen, and an IV. One doctor thought that I had a supraventricular tachycardia, but it did not show up on the monitor. After that, I was so scared that it would happen again (which it did - I ended up in the ER a few times after that - always with a normal EKG and it was considered a panic attack). I had a history of panic disorder 30 years ago, and all this came back from worrying so much about my heart, along with all the fun symptoms of anxiety that I mentioned (feelings of unreality, lightheadedness, weight loss (20 pounds), shakiness...). RLR has helped me a lot not to be so concerned about my heart, though I have a long way to go getting back into shape the way I used to be. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Jul 4th, 2010, 5:22pm Okay, let's take the topic back toward responding to my last posting. I want to hear your responses to my comments. This is an important exercise in revealing the manner that perceptions can influence the kind of beliefs which are established. I'm trying to take you in the direction where you need to be in order to decifer why you experience symptoms and the subsequent mindset that is created. Stay with me on this. Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Jul 5th, 2010, 12:15am Ok, to go back to your posting RLR, I would say that benign palpitations occur a heck of a lot more frequently than fatal car accidents, if we knew the figures. But what we see is this - if a fatal car accident happens then it is all over the news and brought to our attention and they really happen quite infrequently, but obviously benign palpitations are not brought to our attention much at all in our standard dailt lives (not internet use searching them out) and I for one often find myself looking at regular people all around me and think "why me?!" none of them are having to live through these darn palpitations like I am!" But of course in reality I have no way of knowing whether they have them too. Through their eyes they would not know that I had palpitations either. So it is a fact that my perception of palpitations frequency in society is distorted. and of course you never see something on the news headlines like "man does not die of benign palpitations". not very exciting is it. I remember reading somewhere of a guy that had bad palps and decided to check everyone else in his office, something like 9 people, and out of those something like 5 had palps in some form or another, they just never broadcasted the fact though, so he would have never known. I can only speak of me personally, but I feel my issue is now not as much with distorted thinking about palps causing me to drop dead instantly etc RLR has brought lots of us past that stage by his explanations of scientific fact, but it is more to do with worry about the uncomfortable feelings just taking the edge off my happiness long term, because they are not going away, I think a lot of others MIGHT be feeling this way too. Especially those that have had it long term who just cant seem to get past that last step. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Jul 5th, 2010, 4:49am Okay, let's examine your response. We don't know the precise figures of people experiencing benign heart palpitations because there is no morbidity or mortality associated with them whatsoever. There has never been a recorded death from them, so statistically they don't merit any attention, yet their presence in the lives of those who suffer them literally dominate one's daily outlook. If there is no fear of fatality from them. then the question becomes why they disrupt one's outlook so dramatically. Is there still fear of an ominous event, or does it have to do with something else? If you did not suffer from benign palpitations, what characterization of anxiety would all of you be experiencing? What type of focal anxiety did you have prior to the manifestation of the palpitations, or what type of focal anxiety do you recognize in yourselves in addition to health anxiety? In other words, what are the patterns that you recognize in yourselves that in any way relate to the health anxiety that is presently the focus here? This is an important point because we need to start taking this away from the physical realm and I can tell you by the need to actually prod members to respond to this thread and maintain the discussion that resistance abounds. Note that in any instance where the discussion in other threads is purely in the physical realm, the threads often become lengthy and everyone can relate to the topic in some context. We're starting to turn you here in the direction you need to proceed in order to ultimately determine the underlying driving force which culminates into the symptoms that concern you, primarily the palpitations. Now you'd think that members would be all over this thread and creating discussion in the same manner, but note the distinct difference. This is the part of you that you're most unfamiliar with and constitutes the illusive matter actually driving your health anxiety in this instance and anxiety in general in other contexts. The endline of this thread will represent close proximity to the very heart of the matter which most of you either do not recognize or seek to avoid. So if you're truly interested in finding out something about yourselves that can produce real change in your circumstances, then you need to stop googling all sorts of diseases wherein arrhythmias are present, or attempting to make association between your palpitation events and any physical disorder or disease, and alternatively start examining the actual underlying factors which are producing the events. If you think you're afraid of the palpitations, just observe the apprehension of members to traveling down this road with me to identifying the real source of the problem. The itended end-line focal point where we need to proceed is the true source of fear for all of you. So if you have the courage to proceed, then do so and we'll explore it together as a group. If you can't, then you need to explore the reasons why. Either way, you need to implicitly understand that if you are truly going to move beyond the realm of this forum and be free of the circumstances, then you need to start letting go of all your focus to physical causal factors related to your palpitations. If you'll look at the forum here and on any other forum you can locate online, you'll see that virtually all of the individuals posting say that they've been through all the tests and nothing was found, yet they remain rigidly bound to trying to address the problem in the realm of physical medicine. If you think you're on wobbly ground because a physical cause can never be found, just wait until you contemplate the actual underlying causal factor. I can more than guarantee you that just reading that statement will produce apprehension and discomfort in most of you here. It represents the furthest point from your long-time efforts to control it, yet it represents the focal point which must be resolved in order that you set yourselves free from it. We've spent a great deal of time with me simply providing reassurance about your concerns of some type of heart problem or other physical disease and much of my effort is drawn to where you simply wish it to be. In other words, you spend time luring yourselves toward irrational beliefs that are outright compelling and unavoidable, only to appear on the forum in efforts to unravel your perceptions to some previous and more comfortable state. We could go on doing this for the remainder of your lives, but at my age I'm afraid that it would only persist for the remainder of my own. So do you really want to solve the mystery of the palpitations and other symptoms or do you collectively wish to merely have reassurance to offset your own pursuit of the answer? People are most afraid to pursue the cognitive and psychological aspects of the issue because it directly represents the least amount of control and produces the greatest irrational beliefs of all. People become afraid that the discovery will reveal some ominous revelation and it is this focal point which quickly draws forth the greatest fear and apprehension. If you're one of those who believes that you had no problems prior to the manifestation of the palpitations, then I'm here to tell you that you know little, if anything, of the actual problem that has existed well before their onset. It's your choice, but my time with you is limited. Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by dbrandenb on Jul 5th, 2010, 6:14am RLR, I am very excited about this post because after 7+ years of being "stuck" in a place of fear about my heart, I am finally at a point where I must move forward. Too much of my time has been spent trying to chase these things down. Too many doctor's visits where I have complained about various forms of the same thing--benign palpitations. Every time I thought I had a handle on them, they would return in a new form, slightly different feeling, and I'd run back to the doctor. I'm ready to get past these. I am excited to work on the mental aspect that is causing the palps. That is the part that my EP never addresses, and I feel is lacking. Thanks, RLR. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Jul 5th, 2010, 6:45am I'm all for this. I actually get a great relief knowing that my heart is fine. I would like to move beyond the anxiety and do whatever it takes to get back to how I used to feel so strong and healthy. My therapist stated that the panic disorder came back, not just from the tachycardia I was experiencing, though it did scare me, but from an accumulation of the past couple of years of stress and not replenishing myself. Taking care of others, but not getting enough positives back. This on top of a very stressful job. If I'm not focusing in on my tachycardia, then I seem to focus in on my weight loss and upset stomachs (and then get panicky about losing so much weight and getting so skinny - then I think, will I ever be able to eat enough again to be healthy again? What will happen if I can't eat better?) I also will focus in on some dizziness or feelings of unreality. I think over a period of time I lost confidence in myself. I am opened to looking at things that bring this on, not just the physical reactions to the stress. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Jul 5th, 2010, 6:58am Well for me RLR is now taking me down a different route than I was expecting this post to go. And regarding the 1st section of his reply “focal anxiety” I can now see that before the palps I had, a racing heart off and on for a long time, then a period of calm (years), before that I had bad IBS, before that I would have nervous Diarrhoea, infrequently all my life. Basically this anxiety of mine, which I have had in various forms since childhood has morphed in to various symptoms, each of which became the centre of my universe at the time, almost nothing could be worse than the symptom I was experiencing back then (in my distorted thinking at the time). Lots of anxiety relief books etc including the health service, states that for people with health anxiety, and lets face it that’s what I think 99% of us here has, going to forums (researching etc) is the last thing we should be doing, basically because it’s full of people with long term anxiety issues sharing their concerns and symptoms, which reminds us all the time of our issues, we make research / forums etc our life instead of LIVING our lives. I think this is pretty much the reason I posted my thread “Thanks but I think I need to leave” about 1 ½ months ago. I knew deep down that I had received all the reassurance that I should need, and that there were other matters I needed to address. I needed to try to throw myself back in to my life and get on with things, like people without health anxiety would do naturally. But reassurance can be like a drug and I am still here, selfishly looking for answers and even more reassurance from RLR and others, still looking for the magic answer. But I think this forum is different in 2 main ways than the others, 1) We have RLR bringing us back to scientific fact 2) This thread is going much deeper than just reassurance. I believe most of my health issues and anxieties is a learned behaviour from my late mother, as I can trace this way of thinking right back to me at about 8 years of age. But I am not sure why, with this understanding, I couldn’t just logically stop the obsessive behaviours over the years, I seem to get dragged in to very similar downward spirals all the time. i.e. my IBS which cleared up completely when I had something more worrying to concentrate on - my palpitations! The behaviour was learned, but the responsibility is 100% mine for keeping it going with the knowledge I have. RLR I hope I am not diverting this thread in a different direction than one you intended, but I am trying to follow your lead here. And I certainly want to solve the mystery of my palpitations and health anxiety once and for all. I for one think this thread should be up there in the important threads section at the top. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Jul 5th, 2010, 5:34pm For some time, I have taken on board the fact that the cause of the palpitations, in my case anyhow is undoubtedly long term stress. So while the cause may be psychological and emotional, the outcome is physical. So, the physical outcome is less understood by me. That is since visiting this forum I do now have a little understanding of the vagus nerve. However, I have no understanding of how the mind communicates with that nerve and therefore no understanding as to why it is communicating differently or even wrongly. Educating me certainly helps me get past the fear. Demystifying things, really does help. I have to add this, and although I have my own theory (although I hate to analyse myself too deeply) I am in fact almost sure I know the root of my physical symptoms. For around two weeks, I have had less and less palps. Some days I have had none. Bear in mind that I have gone 11 months with 100's and before that a few months with say 30 a day. So that's a good year or more. Until now I have not had a break. Here is what happened. This is hard as I do not like sharing my private details all over the internet. As told before, I have been under a lot of stress due to remodelling a house, things going wrong and it taking 3 years longer than it should have. This all caused a strain on a relationship. Well the day these things started to subside was the day I found the courage to speak to the breakdown. No hiding from how I felt, no covering up, or silent anger and fear. It was like a huge weight had been lifted. I still have the odd palp, and it may just be that I am having a good few weeks and it will all return but even then, I have not even had a good day before now. If it does return...it will be stress that makes that happen. I had one bad day 2 days ago and I was truly stressed about a journey I had to make. What can be made of this? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Dickyboy199 on Jul 8th, 2010, 11:44am Hi RLR, everyone, Your veiw on fatal car accidents against a fatality due to benign ectopics is an interesting one and also one that I can totally understand and agree with in principal. The fact that there are more fatalities on the road is quite a scary one but as you say it's something that we don't think too much about as we feel we are in control of that aspect of our lives. Our hearts we are NOT. But I also think that for all of us who experience these irregular annoying rythmns it is something that does not seem natural. We know the statistics for heart disease, cancer, other diseases, accidents etc but we don't focus on any of this. I am slightly over weight and have a slightly high cholesterol but I constantly focus or worry about having a stroke or something equally as serious. This is why so many people smoke and will not give up. They do not see the damage they are doing to their bodies and are in fact in denial as statistics prove the danger smoking does to us yet because after smoking a few ciggerettes nothing happens and then after weeks, months years still nothing happens then human nature just thinks it won't happen to me and we just ignore it until one day when maybe a person who smokes does develop a terminal disease. But by then it is too late! But with our hearts it is different. For 19 years of my life I can honestly say I had never felt anything relating to an irregular beat. I felt my heart beating fast after running or exercise, I felt it beat in the night but I had never noticed anything unusual. To then suddenly feel something so unnatural and unnerving does make you think this is serious. We have all been brought up knowing how important your heart is. It is the pump that pumps our very life blood. We feel it daily and know that it should beat regularly. Once this illusion has been shattered we search for answers which we can never find. Our anxiety waxes and wanes as we have test after test all proving that our hearts are structually normal. We are told to not worry and live with them. They will die down and maybe even go away. We do this and forget all about them and get on with our lives but for some reason they never go away in fact mine have only got worse. Whatever information we try to find is confusing. From one hand they are normal, benign, a cause of the vagal nerve, anxiety. But I find it so odd that I have experienced them from 19 until 46 and they still haven't gone away. This in itself I know tells me that they are not dangerous but you must realise that putting up with the vageries of the heart not knowing what it's going to do from day to day pales by comparison to worrying about having a car accident. Thanks for the thread though RLR cause it's a very interesting one! Kind Regards Rich |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Dickyboy199 on Jul 8th, 2010, 11:47am By the way, sorry RLR, I didn't read your last post before I posted mine!! Duhh!! Anyway YES I would like to explore further with you on this, most definitely. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jul 8th, 2010, 5:34pm I have been delaying responding to this thread again since your most recent postings because I really wasn't sure what to say. However, I've been thinking on this issue for a number of days and I still don't really know what to write. For me the most important part of your last post was the following line: 0C120C5E0 wrote:
I hope you are going to elaborate much more on this because I am one of those people. My anxiety did appear out of the blue and very suddenly and I did not associate it with anything that has happened in the past. I do not know exactly what you mean when you say "problem that has existed well before their onset" but I have a reasonable idea. When I analyse my past and more specifically the years leading up to the onset of my anxiety and subsequent symptoms I realise that I did not lead a mentally healthy life. For many years I have been angry, bitter, vengeful, frustrated, misereble and at times, hateful, towards a certain person in my life because of they way they have treated me and my family for many, many years. Of course I am not going to tell my life's story here. The person is my brother whom I will be glad never to see again once I am able to leave home in a few months time. I harbour a great deal of extremely negative emoitions and feelings towards him and his ways and was bullied and threatened by him for the length of my teenage years. Once I reached about 18 or 19 his 'bullying' did not affect me the way it did as he was unable to pull it off. However, his evil ways did not change and he has still had a huge negative impact on my entire life. Because of his extremely negative impact on my teenage years I also held very bleak outlook on life in general. I do believe I have been mentally abused by him; though I will not go in to any deatils on this thread as this is a seperate issue. I will just say that he has been exceedingly evil and vile to me and was his worst when I was at my most important time in development (13-16). It has had such a huge impact on my life that I am sure it has contributed to my current state in some way. The next horrible thing that happened to me was the onset and diagnosis of Crohn's disease. As if my outlook on life wasn't bad enough, the last thing I needed was a chronic and incurable disease to mess it up even more. I was very ill for about 8 or 9 months until I was able to achieve complete remission for about a year which was fantastic. Once I was in remission my life returned to its previous state. I have always believed the cause of the end of my remission was because of the declining state of my mental health in the months before. The 'evil' one in my life was causing so much trouble and depression within the family that I became so angry and frustrated with my entire life that I started to become seriously ill again. By the time of my relapse my family had been split apart because of him. The 'evil' one was being more destructive and vile than ever to everybody, especially our mother which consequently made my anger towards him so much stronger. I was also given very little in the way of options regarding my Crohn's. The gastroenterologist was keen to have me undergo surgery to remove the affected bowel which made me even more depressed. My answer has always been a resounding 'NO' to that option as I would like to keep my body as in-tact as possible for as long as possible. My health at this point was not declining but it certainly wasn't improving and this was also around the time that my anxiety had shown up. Needless to say I have been completely off drugs for Crohn's for about 10 months now and I will stay off them for as long as possible. My Crohn's, though, is still active. To what extent I am unsure, though I am feeling very much better than I was and believe I will be able to stay this way for a good deal of time. I do not know if these are the type of 'problems' you were talking about when you said "problem that has existed well before their onset" but I can think of no others in my life that could relate to my current state of mental health. I believe the relapse and decline in my health to be the straw that broke the camel's back in this instance as I battled through many years of mental abuse and negative emotion and I feel I was able to bear that load. I believe I was pushed over the edge when my health started declining again and I felt like I was about to hit rock bottom. In a way I may have been better off actually hitting the bottom as in my opinion, feeling as bad as I did yet knowing I could fall a lot further made me terrified of what the future holds. The thing that scared/scares me the most is my illness and at the time I was terrified that the only option left was surgery and a worsening of my disease. RLR, if I have missed the point here I do apologise for rambling on for all this time. I've been writing this for about an hour now and I hope I am actually making some progress here in finding out the cause/s of my anxieties. Regardless, I feel a little better for it. I hope you reply to this thread soon as I am very interested in hearing what you have to say. George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jazzmynn on Jul 8th, 2010, 7:15pm RLR, I just want you to know, that since I have learned from you that palpitations are not harmful and are caused by the vagus nerve, I have taken trips and have done things I would have avoided before. I am beginning to believe that the palpitations are a manifestation of stress and anxiety I have had for many years. Please correct me if I am wrong, but is this nothing more than one of many symptoms of my long standing anxiety? Is this not any different than having an upset stomach, a headache or some other physical malady? Is it the fact that it is the heart per se that we worry excessively about because it is such a vital organ? I still have palpitations but I do not become as upset about them. Am I correct in assuming that there are triggers making palpitations happen such as fatigue, anxiety, etc? Is it possible to finally convince oneself that they are insignificant and to not let them concern me at all? It's the feeling that elicits a response from me, because it startles me. I would give anything to not be affected by them. Thank you for your kind assurance. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Jul 9th, 2010, 3:35am George, just wanted to acknowledge and thank you for sharing with us here. Its hard to do that on an open forum I know. My own thoughts are that for myself anyway, my symptoms are psychosomatic and have developed from my pent up emotions coupled with extreme stress. I have been almost 3 weeks with just a couple of light palps a day since letting my feelings be known, but also in letting them go. hey will come back I am sure because the works on the house continue. Then I will have the stress of moving. At least I will understand why they are there. The reason then I fear them is the dizzyness, especially in a public place like the street where sitting down is not an option Its hard to let go when a person has caused us to ride that negative emotional roller coaster. My own opinion is that those feelings swallow a person up. Letting go is very hard, but I do believe it sets us free. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Jul 12th, 2010, 5:48pm Okay, we'll be addressing your responses in a day or two, but I've fallen short of time today. When I next respond, we're going to discuss the process of self-discovery and share some cognitive revelations that will help to build a perspective necessary to start venturing away from seeking underlying medical causes for your palpitations and begin the exploration of identifying the actual underlying origin. Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Doogiej on Jul 14th, 2010, 8:56am It's interesting what is written here, I was like most when my heart started messing about, it came out of the 'blue' and I had no idea why, so I instantly assumed it was worse case scenario...then over a few years there was a spate of professional footballers just keeling over and dying. Fit young men just dying. Scared the crap out of me. This was my car crash, my reason for focusing on it...exposure of a similar complaint in the news. It wasn't until I went for counselling that I realised what RLR has written here, I had a problem long before the palps...I just didn't realise it all linked together. With the help of the counsellor we pieced together my anxiety history and it became apparent I had displacement type activities, first it was fear of heart attacks...then for years when I got stressed I would be sick, that morphed into a need to always be near a toilet, then fear of meningitis. There was always something, and for the last 4 years it was my heart. This thread has been interesting. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jul 21st, 2010, 10:01pm Hi everyone, Just thought I would bump this back to page 1 as no one seems to be continuing the discussion while we wait for RLR to move on to the next stage of this thread. Hope you haven't forgotten about it! Also might aswell post something on-topic here aswell as a bump. I've gone back up to 2.5mg bisoprolol because I have been feeling panicky lately and have been on 1.25mg for about 13 days. I don't want to start having panic attacks again so I've gone back on my previous dosage. My latest near-miss panic attack was Sjogren's Syndrome because my mouth and eyes have been dry. I think it is definitely because of the reduction in beta blockers so I'm going to stay on 2.5mg for now. Looking forward to your response, George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by angiebaby on Jul 23rd, 2010, 11:23am I think this thread is great! I have become a lot better with my palpatations and ectopics recently. But that is probably because my other symptoms (neck, head, ears, blood shutting off in neck and head etc) have become much worse and have overtaken everything that was worrying me. Anxiety is much better too, but depression because of symptoms has increased. Very beneficial and interesting thread and very helpful too. Although i find it hard to contemplate mortality - not in my control i suppose - so that bit at the end of RLR hit hard ' time being limited' and that! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Jul 25th, 2010, 11:45pm Hi Doogiej, I think when we look back, a lot of us can probably relate to you saying about the morphing symptoms, I guess that is what they call health anxiety. I can also releate to you mentioning about the pretty famous young football players suddenly dying from heart attacks too. You would have thought they'd had VERY thorough medicals, plus they were also super fit, so it doesnt really make sense to me that it can happen. Hi Angiebaby, I'm sure I read somewhere that the body / mind can only concentrate fully on one pain (problem?) fully at a time, I guess this is how TENS machines etc work, and I can certainly relate to the fact that when other problems of ours are seen as more important than the palps (or a distraction) then the palps usually stop or really reduce. I'm hoping RLR is feeling fine and is just busy or something as he hasn't been around here much lately. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Jul 26th, 2010, 11:43am I'm sure RLr is fine. he comes here when he can. he'll get back to this thread no doubt. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 4th, 2010, 11:09pm I just wanted to post on this thread so that it doesn't get lost in the older pages, I know others are as eager as I am to continue with the discovery process ;) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by cck9 on Aug 5th, 2010, 5:37am RLR I don't think for me it is worrying about dying from these things at all. I clearly know there is more risk with getting in your car everyday. But to feel these things in your chest constantly, plays on your mind and the quality of your life is gone why because you have these constant missed skipped thumps in your chest, It is a noxious stimulus that makes you slowly go crazy. If I got into my car everyday and worried this would be my last ride I probably would feel the same way but I don't. I have some control over my fate in a car. But I have no control over these pounding stimulus in my chest. This is a great thread thanks for starting it. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 6th, 2010, 10:28am I agree with you ckk...it is about quality of life. For me, I have good days and they are a great relief...but even they are overshadowed by the not so good days. I feel I am not like other people...having to hang on to a wall, or experience the swimming feeling when they happen. I certainly have become depressed because I no longer do fun things...in fact nothing much is fun with these things going on most of the time. For three days they have been bad again...not that they ever go. I have that awful feeling in my chest 24/4 like trapped air |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 6th, 2010, 12:39pm Hi RLR, Any idea when you might have time to continue with your post, I come here every day hoping for an update? 'Im real eager, as I should imagine others are, to see where you are taking us on this journey. sorry if I sound pushy, I know your a busy man. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 9th, 2010, 12:25am I knew months ago that I was basically coming to this forum for more reassurance, hence my post back then stating that "I needed to leave the forum" I knew the reassurance which eased my anxiety for hours or days was never going to be the cure. I had gotten myself in to a negative cycle, creating anchors and associations between my anxieties and palpitations and it has been obvious to me for a long time that I need to break the associations and cycle for me to get back my normal life and get back to where I used to be. Normal people don’t keep visiting forums like this looking for reassurance and comfort, they are living their lives instead. So why the hell does it seem sooo difficult to do the logical thing and kick these bad habits? When we know that these things are anxiety related (unless GI probs)? Why am I apparently so darn resistant to getting on with my life? Getting my old self back? Back to where I used to be – Back (staying) in my old dead end job which I have been in since a kid. Back to not fulfilling my potential. Back to my old anxious self before the palps started. Back to time feeling like it is racing away from me since I turned 40 last year. Back to not feeling immortal since my mother passed away 2 years ago, you know how it is when you are younger you never think about death. Perhaps deep down I don’t want to go back to where I was at all??? Are the palps therefore just a physical manifestation of the above issues, something that is building up trying to tip me off, trying to make me change, or am I thinking too deeply there perhaps??? Phew! Think I might have some issues there! It's not that I was THAT unhappy before, I'd say I was just normal with normal concerns. RLR – as you have mentioned before, these palps we are having are benign, so statistically they don’t merit any attention. But the problem is that even though they won’t kill us (and I do know that) they are a real pain in the as*, when I wake in the morning and feel the palps already there, it is very difficult to be happy and positive and just brush them aside, imagine waking with a mild toothache every morning, it can/would soon get you down. The concern becomes not – will these things kill me, or turn in to something else, but WHEN will they go away, if EVER, then I think back to how long I have had them already, how much time has passed, it makes me feel constantly on guard. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Aug 9th, 2010, 4:35am I feel the same way with my tachycardia. Even though I seem to be able to work with them better and have started to do some physical things (which I haven't been doing out of fear of raising my heart rate and getting the strong tachycardia), they are always something that I am having to work with (distraction, deep breathing) and I think it wears you down after awhile. My anxiety didn't start with the tachycardia, as my therapist has said this was just a symptom of the accumulative stress that I have been under, probably over the last couple of years. I think what the tachycardia did to me, was that with repeat episodes I became very fearful. And with the increase fear, came the increase anxiety to the point I lost an enormous amount of weight and was feeling the adrenalin pumping through me all the time. It brought on all the other feelings of anxiety (lightheadedness, being afraid to go grocery shopping and other places, feelings of unreality and spaciness, the weight loss). I think these other feelings that you get with the anxiety perpetuates the anxiety cycle also. I think one has to be patient for these things to calm down and work with a therapist as to where the anxiety came from. That is what I am trying to do and in fact I have gained back about 3 pounds. I have a long way to go with getting all of my weight back on and learning that the tachycardia and all the other anxiety-related feelings are not dangerous. It is hard and tiring to keep on telling yourself that these things are not dangerous. You just want it to go away. But I do think, with patience, and work, that you will gradually feel the anxiety get better, and with that will come less of the tachycardia. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 9th, 2010, 5:42am I know for me there are many (similar) issues to those of Jason's for me. Also, the regret and pain I feel about the wrong choices I've made. I am 60 so I am even more aware of time ticking away and wondering if at this age, there is any chance of ever being content. And of course my mortality has come into question each time I have suffered a loss. Recently witnessing another's pain of loss of someone my age now has added to this. The palps have forced me to realize all of this, but I am at a loss how to turn things around at such a late stage in my life. Some how, some way have to change my outlook and try to fill my life with enjoyable things. But not knowing how causes me a lot of pain and frustration |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 9th, 2010, 8:19am Yes Typer, it's kind of like a midlife crisis, which you can have at any age, once you start to over analyze things it can snowball and you end up over analyzing everything in life from the meaning of life all the way down to the little things. I notice you have a link to a craft forum. Is that yours? do you enjoy crafts, can you do more and get really immersed in it perhaps? Getting on with life inspite of palps is very hard, but it must be done, basically there is no alternative for us really is there? You could start (and me too) by writing a list of things we are grateful for, I'm not sure of your situation, but mine would be something like - I'm grateful for - having my son Having a great wife Having a nice house etc etc the more the better - the list could be anything, even a guitar you own etc - whatever. The point of the list is to make us appreciate and also realize that there are actually a LOT of good things happening in our lives, even if we dont see them straight away, and palps are really a smaller part than we are making them. Hey here's another one or 2 - I'm grateful to just be alive another day - to see another sunrise It's a start and I think if we remind ourselves daily, or even a few times per day then it should help us look at the nicer things which are going on in our lives rather than obsessing over the bad so much. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Aug 9th, 2010, 7:49pm I am finding this thread somewhat difficult to continue with now because the continuation of discussion and further discovery relies on us as a group, rather than Dr. Rane taking us to the next stage and I just don't know where to go. I've been trying for a day to write out a response but I just can't think of what to say. I think I'll start by trying to examine some of your post [RLR's] in the other thread. 455B45170 wrote:
We are all awaiting some type of engagement before we can progress. I speculate the reason for this is because we all come here for guidance, reassurance or information and we have probably been viewing this thread in a step-by-step fashion where you [RLR] post a message and we post our responses then await your guidance like a how-to guide. We expect you to tell us what to do next or what we should try and achieve. I, and I suspect we, always expect some kind of analogous, informative reply wherein we recieve factual information presented in an easy to understand message which gives us the relief we already know is coming. I can't speak for the other members but I have now begun to anticipate the general tone of your replies to my threads and sometimes purposely come here when I am feeling more anxious because I know that your words are comforting in that regard. I realise that my heart has been given the all clear and have informed you on the message boards of my doctor's visits and tests and I know your response is going to be similar each time I post a 'heart' related question. I also realise, as other members have pointed out, that this is only a short-term relief and is not a viable long term solution to gaining sustained relief from symptoms. The key, then, would be to learn how to let go of obsessive worries and anxieties over symptoms which perpetuates their presence. For a long time I have been under the impression that my symptoms came first, then my anxiety came after because I worried about them and I realise from interaction with others who are suffering that this is a common finding in anxiety sufferers. With that in mind I also want to pose the question: does it matter if we find out what the cause was, or is? What difference does it make now that the symptoms have already manifested? I am well aware that my symptoms are harmless and I know to some extent why they happen but that does not help in lessening the constant negative thoughts about them nor does it lessen them in any way. Surely it would be logical to focus on creating a new outlook on life and the symptoms themselves. You can't cure lung cancer by giving up cigarettes. You can't cure heart disease by exercise, lifestyle and dietary choices, but you can take steps to prevent lung cancer by not smoking and you can take steps to prevent heart disease by living a healthy lifestyle, exercising regularely and eating well. Surely knowing the cause is irrelevant in terms of finding relief from the symptoms? Using the above analogies, you must find another way around your illness or ailment. Simply reversing the cause does nothing once this problem has manifested because you may not be able to extinguish it. It may have been an event that only happened once, or a series of events that happened years ago that you can do nothing about in the present. How can you 'reverse' it when it no longer exists? The way forward is not in looking back. I am going to continue writing this message as I feel I have much more to talk about but at the moment I need a break, this has taken hours to write :-). George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by ckgage on Aug 9th, 2010, 10:06pm I think that, for me, my anxiety is rooted in a desire to control. I have a sense of control when I drive my car, although that sense of control is admittedly false as I can easily be distracted and I can't control how the other people on the road drive or how my car performs when I drive it. I don't like to fly because I'm not in control of the plane; I don't like roller coasters because the car might come flying off the track.....I'm not in control. The thing that is ironic here is that I fear the worst case scenario when it comes to my health because I feel like I can't control it. But, really, in many ways, I can control my heart palpitations by recognizing them for what they are, believing what the doctor says, and choosing to not pay them any attention when they come. My choice to focus on the palpitations, whether that means to think about how bad they make me feel or how much i wish they would go away, or to instinctively reach up to take my pulse, only feeds the adrenaline, which produces anxiety.....and therefore, more palpitations. So what I am realizing as I type this is that, in this instance, I DO have the control, but I choose to not exercise it. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 10th, 2010, 12:33am Hi Ckgage, Have you seen the easycalm course for anxiety??? http://www.easycalm.com/ because what you are saying is exactly what he says, watch his chapter 1 video and you will see what I mean. Control or lack of it is always an issue with people experiencing anxieties. The site looks a bit gimmicky but the guy talks a LOT of sense and certainly knows his stuff. ----------------------- Hi George, Thanks for taking the time to post that message; I for one appreciate you input immensely. I can relate to a lot of what you said, although I have only been here for a few months I too can frequently anticipate the general direction of the forum - new member comes here worried, RLR responds giving reassurance as scientific fact, the new member thanks RLR and is very relieved, probably thinks they can now relax and get on with lives, but when the symptoms don’t go away, or even worse go away for a day or so then come back in a different form then the member is back with pretty much the same question, and so the loop begins. I know RLR knows that this reassurance is not curing most people, hence his post and question to us all. I agree with 100% of your statement "The key, then, would be to learn how to let go of obsessive worries and anxieties over symptoms which perpetuates their presence". Palpitations might have started for some due to a gradual increase in stress / anxieties or by a sudden GI disturbance which gave a frightening run of missed beats etc. I think if the start was caused by some deeply seated emotions then tracing back could really put things in to perspective and reduce or eliminate the palps. In others it might not help. I think personally I had gradual increased anxieties which finally resulted in IBS, then after that Palpitations. But I don’t want this to be about my story so I’ll leave that there. In others if they fear a heart attack due to palps then simply exercising and thus PROVING the hard can work hard and survive might stop their palps. But in my opinion the more a person ruminates and tries to think his / her way out of this thing the deeper they can be pulled under - does that make sense??? The compulsive searching makes it an obsession, which also has physical symptoms. George in the book I sent you it states and I feel clinically proves, that the cycle of obsessive thoughts we are now in is pretty much wired in our brain, similar to Pavlovs dog / bell. Which is why I think we feel so helpless lots of the time, out of control of our own minds - it's quite frightening for sure. But it can also be undone - not that I have managed it yet - by reverse engineering, deliberately stopping the obsessive behaviour, pulse checking etc and forcing yourself to get on with other things, a little at 1st then increasing, eventually the neural pathways should return to normal. Basically it is pushing yourself back to normal life and normal activities. I also fully agree with your statement "Surely it would be logical to focus on creating a new outlook on life and the symptoms themselves" but did you mean "and the symptoms" or should it have been "than the symptoms"? I think the answer as I mentioned in my post above IS looking forwards in life, but I think that, as best we can, we should try not to focus on the symptoms at all. What we focus on certainly grows. And if that is true, then coming to this forum daily searching for elusive answers is not helping at all. This particular thread is excellent and thought provoking to say the least, but by RLR not posting on it for weeks then it has made me come here much more often in anticipation of his answers, waiting for the enlightenment. Then when I see nothing has been updated I almost always have a quick look at the other new posts, which are usually just talk about symptoms – stuff you don’t really need to be looking at when your not feeling to great yourself, but it’s hard not to look. I honestly feel that once this thread reaches it’s conclusion then there is little more to gain here other than reassurance, and we’ve talked about that enough. NORMAL people don’t search anxiety / palpitation forums etc daily, so we shouldn’t either, if we want to get back to normality. I hope all the people that come to this forum don't just read this thread passively but also adds their opinions to it, it's the only way we are going to get ourselves up and out of this quicksand. EVERYONE has something of value to say on this topic, reading the posts about symptoms is not going to help you much at all, continuing this thread just might though. That might well have been the longest, most boring post ever done on this forum, but hopefully some of you have managed to read through it and relate in some way. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 10th, 2010, 2:40am 42495B474645280 wrote:
Jason I truly appreciate your words. Yes I do crafts, and quite a lot of them as well because a local shop sells them for me. I love it, but like my other hobby (writing short stories) its a lonely occupation. Before this, I was for 16 years and am once I am well I guess, a therapist and supervisor of others. I had a good and busy private practice as well as doing work for the NHS. I had to give all of that up because it simply is not ethical to be rushing to the toilet in sessions and feeling light headed to the point where I am no longer with the person, but rather with my own heart flip flops. I had to take early retirement (for now anyway). We built an extension on the house we moved into 4 years ago and the work within the house is still happening. Right now for instance a bathroom is completely ripped out. Yes I have a spare bathroom but...the house is in constant turmoil. I worked at home and so it was stressful making the hall and walk to my office acceptable for 3 days a week when I saw clients. I know this is part cause and have worked some CBT on myself so that I am managing this a little better. I also have fantastic colleagues who have helped me. But...and its a big but I know that if one is content one can deal even with ongoing work on the house. Yes there would be stress. But I do believe some issues are so deep that even we can not see them. I have watched with delight when clients piece together the puzzle of their own plight. That look of insight. An example, and I do have to change the details a little. I saw someone who had developed anxiety attacks. This person had witnessed a very close relative dying of cancer. About a year later the person developed panic attacks in certain situations and it seemed like an obvious conclusion that observing a long and painful illness of a loved one would be the root cause. However, I noted this person was quite passive, said sorry a lot and eye contact was difficult + some of it was just an instinct after years of working with people. After some sessions where trust had been built up, I managed to gently talk about my observation to which the person replied that yes, they often did not speak up for themselves. The person then went on to relate a story whereby a so called friend had said a number of hurtful things to which the person responded passively while inside felt rage. The person then related other situations in life where rage and anger had been felt but left unexpressed. We worked on it a little, and normally I would have expected at least a year of work with the person. However, I asked the person to write a letter/email to the friend expressing feelings but to not send it. (not a very innovative direction but one that often helps) At first the person resisted, but eventually managed it. Later the person reported not only had the email been written but sent. This led to quite an argument on the telephone but one that ended with a resolution. As the person acknowledged anger and rage, once they were able to be truly in touch with it..guess what, they were anxiety, panic attack free. It's not that the person went around being angry, more that they were able to be with what they felt, have insight into how they felt because up until then, the person covered it up even from themselves. It made its way out, but as panic. Much of my career has concluded that a big percent of the time, anger and pain are at the root of anxiety. I was called about 2 years later by the person to ask would I see a friend of theirs and the person also reported that the anxiety had not returned and they were happy and well. Normally I would have expected to work for much longer, but we nipped it in the bud (the anxiety) and of course as so rightly expressed in the Bran that changes Itself - anxiety, begats anxiety phew, sorry this is long but I feel not everything is in our concious awareness. I believe entirely in psychosomatic maladies and I absolutely think that its not about rooting out the cause and changing it. I agree George, one can not go back and change things (sadly). All one has is the here and now. However we all have blind spots and uncovering those and where they originated from may be a clue to recovery, in my opinion. Some of you may have missed this also: http://palps.chemicalforums.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1281177387 |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 11th, 2010, 6:00am Great post Typer - thanks for your input. I gotta agree with a lot of what you said. I think the main issues we have to face here are the ones giving us the perpetual turmoil of which the palpitations are but a symptom. Now as I mentioned for some this could be not related to anything in the past, but something simple like the sudden experience of a missed / rapid beat which the person then latches on to + starts the fight / flight response and the though loops which usually start with it. For others the inner turmoil could be very long standing, something that has dragged us down over years, and for those of us that have noticed the morphed symptoms we discussed a while back, ie mine was, IBS, then palps etc I'd say this is the root cause. I believe you can get out of this loop by looking forwards and not concentrating on the symptoms (as much as possible) thus teaching the body / brain to act normal again and switch off the raised anx, but when you have other life issues (and I think most of us here does, whether we see them or not) then by dealing with them we can get more direction in our lives and comfort in the knowledge that we know what our life is all about and where we are going. I think if we can be comfortable in our own skin, so to speak, then the stress / anxiety levels will reduce by default and the palps will then go. This migh tbe the way RLR is guiding us here. Just my opinions though ;) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 11th, 2010, 4:37pm I think this too. My example was to highlight how something like anger can somatise in the body and in that person's case, cause severe, physically felt panic. Even I was amazed at how qickly it disappeared. But each person here will be different and i think maybe that is why RLR feels the answer is within us. Not just the cause, but the cure. I think!!! I saw my cardiologist today...its late, but I have some interesting ideas to share. Unusually for our NHS docs, he was very interested in what we have learned here and added to that for me personally. He is fantastic and gave me an hour of his time :o...I will try to find time to share |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 12th, 2010, 12:40am Brilliant, yes please do share when you have a chance ;O) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 13th, 2010, 3:27am Well it's not really that exciting but, he told me this. He often sees people with this problem and generally it can last days, weeks and sometimes months. The people, he says where when no physical cause is found and yet they continue for months and even years, tend to have become caught up in that loop you talk of. I spoke about all I had learned from RLR and he concurred. He said that people whose palpitations continue when nothing is wrong physically (with their heart), they are not on medicines that may cause them, they have no stomach issues, nor do they have any other conditions know to cause them - it is in fact the mind. He said those people who are willing to try a number of anti anxiety things often succeed in getting rid of them. He suggested medication, yoga and tai chi, as well as good nutrition and exercise. The good nutrition and exercise is not in fact the cure but rather, giving yourself the positive, nurturing message. he says we should find different ways of thinking about stress. I explained that some people's just seem to disappear and he said that once one starts to relax and de-stress, palps don't just disappear right away because it takes time for the nervous system to be desensitized and this he says, is where people get caught in the loop. Those who continue to de-stress and relax, despite ongoing palps find suddenly, one day they disappear and say, but nothing was different. He says no, not in that moment but ongoing, there has been a change of attitude and therefore mind and body once again become more balanced. He was impressed by RLR and since my last visit had made sure he was up to date. He is very interested in metaphysics though how he marries that up with science I am unsure. He helps people learn to meditate and has given me his number and is going to teach me how to do deep meditation and to use it to clear out negative, stressful thinking. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jazzmynn on Aug 13th, 2010, 7:14am Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel that RLR is giving us time to think and to come up with some of our own answers about the palps. I for one, would like to see them gone forever, but will they ever be? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 13th, 2010, 9:24am You are not wrong Jazzyman. We are sort of soul searching on this thread (I think) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 13th, 2010, 9:28am Agree, this is certainly the thinking thread ;) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Aug 13th, 2010, 5:55pm Now you're starting to proceed in the right direction. Look, if we met at the local habadashery and I picked out a hat I thought suitable for each of you, most would not feel that my choices strike the same pleasing chord as it did when I myself fancied them because like all people, tastes are different. Preferences are established based upon very deep-rooted notions that produce a sense of comfort. It is, in a sense, the basis of who we are from the standpoint of expression. If I create a thread that describes a pathway toward undiscovered country that will release you from the bonds that presently hold you, a good number of people will scurry in anticipation of what they need to know, but this too would constitute my interpretation and not yours. I need for you to understand that this thread is entirely about you and not about me providing you with the all too familiar reassurance encountered under other pretenses. If you've gravitated to the thread in search of me providing you with some pearl of wisdom, then it is precisely this motive which reveals that if you readily do so, then you know little of this kind of introspection. Do you understand? This is not my choice of hat, it's yours. You need to discover and actively seek to understand your preferences that are holding you in a place of comfort, realizing that this comfort zone can just as easily constitute a negative environment as a positive one. I am here to help you start the journey down the yellow brick road, so to speak. As I've so often used the analogy of the Wizard of Oz, you need to ultimately draw back the curtain to expose the great and terrible Oz in order to realize that in all truth, the only person behind that curtain is you. It is an exercise in self-discovery of a lifetime of collective interpretations, beliefs and patterns which have culminated into what you contemporarily represent both to yourself and very likely in an alternative context, what you wish to represent to others. It can sometimes pose the most daunting and anxiety-invoking venture because you must realize that the supression of many of these misinterpreted or conflicting circumstances is what has produced such anixety and apprehension. The sensation that something looms is merely the storehouse of these conflicts coming to bear in varying intensity and at varying intervals. The key is for each of you to better understand yourselves in an entirely different approach to the extent that we both identify, explore and very hopefully resolve the dissonance you supress, subsequently creating an opening for you to absolve yourselves of further influence by the anxiety and stress which presently holds you in its grip. It's really an arena of those who know versus those who do not, the identity of the underlying entrapments which hold you in this state and by that, I mean that for some, the cause is generally known but avoided. In others, the entire matter seems foreign to them and any precipitating cause is as much a puzzle as the subsequent outcome. So choose your hat and give attendance because if you wish to find your way out of this forum and back to the shoes you once wore, then this thread constitutes an extremely potent medium through which to ultimately say to yourselves "There's no place like home, there's no place like home." Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Aug 13th, 2010, 6:48pm EDIT: I began writing this thread before RLR had made his post (sorry for taking so long to write it!) 6548415443310 wrote:
I am also in agreement. As I posted about on the first page I believe the onset of my troubles began with overwhelming amouns of many negative emotions such as anger, bitterness and hatred. I have noticed a serious change in my general emotional tone for well over a year now. I am very quick to anger, generally more angry than I ever have been (like I live in an angry state), very irritable and easy to frustrate, and others. I have become used to it now but before this all began I was very much the opposite. I have never been one to get angry at almost anything and it used to take rather a lot to 'set me off'. I was never irritable at all; nothing bothered me like it does now. Even the cats can really wind me up when they come meowing for food or want attention. Loud noises that interrupt what I am doing (such as sirens drowning out the TV) make me angry, if someone speaks to me inappropriately, jokes at my expense or interrupts me while I am doing anything (like watching TV) I can quite easily become very angry and frustrated. It's like a fire that fuels itself. I've also become very combative and competitive with regards to everyday events. I have always been a competitive person but this aspect of me seems to be more pronounced to the point where I can't let something go until I've either been proven right or wrong. Also, if I happen to be wrong then that also increases my liklihood of being more angry and bitter over it. While that's not entirely unusual in and of itself, it is for me. I don't 'normally' have a problem with being wrong and would ordinarily have seen it as an opportunity to expand my own knowledge and understanding about things, but since all this has happened I seem to have had a re-wiring of my internal circuitry. With that in mind, I am again asking myself the question: what's the answer? If negative thinking got me (and apparently, us) in to it (which is still in question), could positive thinking get me out of it? If that is the case, could simply eliminating the bad emotions without introducing positive ones cause a cessation of symptoms? How can this even be achieved? I am starting to question whether RLR intends to come back to this thread or whether its purpose all along was to keep us in continual discussion with each other to try and discover the cause(s) of our problems. We seem to be going well with the discussion part, but are we discovering anything? I am not sure, I seem to have come to some great realisations about things I was already aware of. For example, the connection between the vast amounts of negativity with regards to my emotional states in the past and present, and the symptoms I currently experience. We don't seem to be collecting our data or making any type of comparative, collective analysis of our responses and reasoning. I think we should start looking at our responses and begin comparing them in a detailed manner to find anything that may be considered a potential anxiety-provoking event or cause. Although we are all different with respect to our anxiety and its cause(s), anxiety is a medical condition that we can study in detail. We all have the same condition and therefore, we are all likely to have some very similar problems (causes) so maybe we should start analysing our similarities and see if it reveals anything. If anyone else is interested, post here and we can form some kind of structure by which we can objectively analyse ourselves as a group. Let's continue the discussion, it's getting more and more interesting for me and I hope we can actually make some progress. George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jazzmynn on Aug 13th, 2010, 10:58pm Well, I think RLR is very clever in how he has had us proceed with this thread. I understand the hat choosing concept, but the concept of telling us of a country to go to that will abolish the symptoms confuses me. What if RLR knew that such a place existed, one that we previously knew nothing about? I for one would go there now. Would that be the same as his personal perception? I really think he is helping me to get it. But, because my whole childhood was in a dysfunctional state, I don't really have a point of reference to go back to. I only have known anxiety, anticipation of doom and dependence. This was my state before the palpitations began. I don't really know of a time that I didn't feel anxious. How then, can I restore myself to the peaceful time in my life? I truly believe that our mindset is causing physical symptoms. How then, do I restore myself to a better state? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 14th, 2010, 2:01am George, Jazzyman People can, have and do recover from nervous states. George may I ask your age and if you remember when you began to feel less tolerant. And may I ask if you were overly tolerant previously? When I say overly tolerant, I do not necessarily mean passive, rather what some term "laid back" Jazzyman, you say your past was dysfunctional - when you say 'restore', do you mean to a state before the dysfunction, or was there no before? Sorry to seem nosey but some questions can be like keys to unopened doors. I am certainly back on the road of self discovery. I cant remember where I got off, being as it has been my work for so long. But it shows me how that journey is life long. Here I sit, palps crashing away thinking....I can beat this and I will because I will learn how to deal with stress and help my mind see things for what they are. Nothing is worth worrying about before my mental and physical health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jazzmynn on Aug 14th, 2010, 12:42pm Typer, There was really no before anxiety except for the before palpitations. If I could even get back to before the palpitations, that would be great, but there was great anxiety and dependence before that! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jazzmynn on Aug 14th, 2010, 12:50pm Let me clear up my last post. Before the palpitations began happening, there was anxiety. In fact, the palpitations started when I was pregnant with my only child 31 years ago. I was raised by my parents to be totally dependent and when I got married and moved out of their house, I had a tremendous breakdown and was even hosptalized. For years now, the palpitations are more frequent. In fact, my husband and I are leaving to go out of town to see my sister in law who is dying, and I keep having palps. Also, does the anxiety ever cause anyone to be fatigued, sleepy and irritable? I am in therapy, but I really want to figure this out with RLR's help. Will I ever be "normal"? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by catgrandma on Aug 15th, 2010, 12:00pm I am new to the forum and after reading through all the posts, feel so much more positive about the palps and my anxiety. I have felt anxious since childhood, with extreme medical anxiety. My palps started about 30 years ago. There was a quiet period, and then they returned and became more persistent. They last up to two weeks without a break. I know I have a lot of buried anger-I have been told that before. I just wasn't in a place where I felt comfortable working on it. I am a consummate researcher (a professional genealogist) so of course I have spent way too much time on the internet checking into palps. I would much rather think than feel. It feels very liberating to say I am done researching palps and with your help will work on the anxiety. Does medication really help? I have reflux problems and take omeprezole. I blame my stomach band (another long story) for the reflux, but could it be the anxiety? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 16th, 2010, 9:57am Interesting that we are all aware that anxiety and/or stress is the culprit. The big question then seems not: How can I get rid of these palps? but: How can I deal better with stress and/or anxiety. My negative thinking is that life is full of stresses, and it is that idea that has me so negative. To think of having these for the rest of my life is just so depressing The only reassurance I have is from speaking with a few people who have not had these since they became more able to deal with anxiety. Some people are always going to err on the side of anxiety, but, coping with it and stopping it early before it spirals may stop these palps |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 16th, 2010, 10:29am Yes it's caused by anxiety in 99% of us here. Now I don't know everything, that's for sure, but I think we can sum the cure up as - "making the rest of our life, the BEST of our life!" and that is not a quote I made up myself (wish I had), but I think it sums things up very well for us. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 16th, 2010, 11:49am Its a good philosophy for sure. But where to start? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Aug 16th, 2010, 4:33pm Why, with your very question of course. Indeed "where to start?" If you will look about the forum, you'll notice an interesting phenomenon taking place. An increasing number of members or regular guests are all citing positive changes with respect to the presence and frequency of palpitations. This factor alone graphically demonstrates that the influence being generated here is beginning to take hold. Understand that this momentum is not being created by me, but rather you as collective members. It is the collective movement beyond a threshold in the right direction because I've given you no other direction to proceed. Rational logic is gradually replacing irrational fears and you're witnessing, in many cases directly experiencing, the positive consequences. Increasing numbers of you are coming to terms with the absolute unwavering fact that nothing is actually wrong with you from a physical standpoint, which more critically affirms that you are not in any actual danger whatsoever. None of you. Understand that with the decreasing sense of danger or apprehension, follows a diminishing impact by the body in response to fear. All of this occurs merely by finally incorporating the reality that in the years since this forum's inception, absolutely nothing has ever happened to any of you as a consequence of your health fears and the presence of bening palpitations among other symptoms from time to time. So we have proof by members themselves that they are mysteriously experiencing periods of relief, indicating that they have finally turned the corner in producing change in themselves by exposure to, and practice of, a different perceptual status. Even if but to question your fears and perceptions results, it constitutes a step in the right direction. So we'll seize the opportunity here to use the positive momentum to begin the journey back to actually determining the origins of the underlying problem. It's very critical for you to understand that in a sense, the brain speaks its own language and you have to tutor yourselves in order to sometimes understand how it perceives the world around and responds to it. It's very unlikely that you can relate to this because we would have otherwise never encountered one another. As we prepare to establish some general guidelines, I want each of you to understand that what you ultimately discover may be entirely counterintuitive to what you anticipate. Regardless, however, not a single revelation produced can ever draw you into harm's way. This journey will take you to places where the fuel which drives your anxiety and fears is running strong, so you'll need to simply understand that natural avoidance behaviors which are largely unrecognized as such, will challenge your desire and motivation to peirce that vail and directly face the circumstances. The source of your troubles is being paradoxically protected by your reluctance, even fear, to confront them. The most difficult and challenging aspect of undertaking this directive is that it will constitute something very different for each of you, or your choice of hat in other words. While you will certainly find it very intriguing to discuss certain individual issues that may arise along the way, you must nevertheless avoid trying to identify with what others describe or experience. A collective identity here is merely to provide you with the realization that you're not taking the journey alone and that others are here to provide support and a resting point should you need to take a break. It is your natural tendency to make subjective associations that you must avoid here, for it is a pattern partially responsible for your predicament. So remember, if you find yourself moving more toward trying to seek similarity with others, you must temper this by acknowledging that your particular discovery is absolutely unique and although you see a pattern developing, you must resist this tendency and push forward until the distinctions become clear. Does that make sense? In other words, if we all started this journey from a very global vantage point, all of you would establish that you're inhabitants of the Earth. While it is quite obvious that everyone's acknowledgement here would be identical, it nevertheless sets the tone as we move closer within the introspective course of each member participating. Some are from North America, some from Europe and so yet another possible similarity is drawn. My point is that you must know when to divert from the patterns of similarity on the pathway of introspection and onto your own specific destination, a point which many of you will avoid if possible. In other words, it's important for all of you to realize that avoidance to confront the underlying issue in yourselves is commonly enacted by alternatively identifying with someone else's predicament, feeling as though you better understand the plight of others than yourself. The adage A cobbler's kids go barefootis very relevant here because it defines a common trait in all humans, but I'm going to give it a twist here because I happen to know just a thing or two about neurology and the human brain. The lore was generally intended to suggest that one is so busy making industry for their patrons, that they haven't time for their own. CONTINUED |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Aug 16th, 2010, 6:01pm CONTINUED FROM ABOVE Well, I'm here to tell you that it runs much deeper and actually speaks to a less noble stance in that many people often prefer to address and tend to the needs of others than themselves. The reason is that they feel better equipped to understand the needs of others because there is no barrier in place to thwart such attempts. Do you see my point here? Let me share with you that many such people are actually so drawn to this human characteristic that they seek out an occupation whereby they can exist within a target-rich environment and immerse themselves in the case of others to their heart's content. It produces great accomplishment and sense of reward. The unfortunate flipside to this engagement is that they nevertheless overtly exhibit signs of suffering from their own difficulties, sometimes quite dramatic in nature. What initially feels like a curative effect, is entirely incapable of penetrating deep within to redress one's own unique point of origin of their problems. Thus, the symbiosis constitutes a drug of sorts needed to place distance between the sufferer and their plight. People who experience daily conflict often become quite keen in recognizing it in others to the extent that they do, in fact, miraculously relate very well and this fact tends to reinforce their participation in the active engagement in the matters of others, not realizing that what they are actually doing is extracting a sensation that constitutes a compelling need or drive. Now what I've just described is going deep into the psyche of the people I'm describing, but I did so more importantly to illustrate how important it is for you to both recognize and work to avoid this common human tendency, particularly where it involves seeking out the source of your problem. I also highlight this phenomenon to support my statement to you that the brain doesn't always speak the language you expect nor deal with conflict in the manner you might believe or even regularly experience. It deals with matters in a sometimes very complex manner and to some extent, we're going to explore some of those strategies, pitfalls in many instances, in order to reach our ultimate destination by improving your accuracy to understand yourself from both a physiological and cognitive vantage point. Okay, I think we've got enough here to contemplate for now. Soon, we'll get beyond this staging aspect and it will be up to each of you to use this knowledge to venture down the yellow brick road toward the land of Oz and into the realm of self-discovery. As we do so, I want each of you to try employing some imagery by giving thought to what new character among the cast of group in that film you might create for yourself that best represents what you believe you are seeking out. You might find it silly or irrelevant to do so, but I assure you that it's both effective and utilizes a very critical pathway that the brain engages to speak its true language. So let's begin exploring what I've discussed with you and talk among yourselves or even pose questions concerning any of the points I've made which don't seem clear. It's critical that you fully understand the roadmap before we proceed further. If you resort to old habits, you'll detour rather quickly to an all too familiar place so stay keen and I'll be right here to address any concerns you may develop. Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Aug 17th, 2010, 5:56pm I am definitely trying to follow what you have posted, RLR. Not sure if I am understanding all of it or not. I think I understand how we need to look at ourselves, and not try to see something in others that we can connect with ourselves. I do find helping other people (as a nurse) a way to escape looking at things in my own life. It is kind of like a distraction - it takes you away from your own issues/problems and it allows you to focus on someone else. I am trying along with my counselor to know what causes all this anxiety in me. I have had it as a young child, even though after my panic disorder in my early twenties pretty much went away, I always had some underlying anxiety throughout the years. I have discovered that I am very dependent on other people, even more so now with the panic disorder. Maybe it is a fear of being by myself and only having myself to depend on. I know by what my counselor has said, that this panic disorder didn't come back only because of the episode of tachycardia that I had, but from an accumulation of stress from the last couple of years. (A mother who is now on hospice, a boyfriend with two heart attacks, a stressful job). I do well taking care of other people, but have not done well taking care of myself and learning how to depend and trust myself. My counselor states that I am on the threshold of recovery. I am still trying to figure that one out, because I have felt more anxiety lately (feelings of unreality, anxiousness and panicky feelings). He states it is because I am facing and challenging my fears and doing things that make me uncomfortable. I am continuing to analyze with his help how I got all of this anxiety and learning how to cope with it and the basis for it. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 17th, 2010, 6:18pm I need to digest what you have written RLR...but from first read I had this sudden thought. A very long time ago, I once had a positive view of a relative. It was so positive that when a few people had pointed out that this person was actually being manipulative and doing and saying quite negative things to me, I could not hear them and stood the relative's ground as though it was my own. After years of therapy, one day, and quite suddenly I saw this person for what they were...this revelation, which came inside led me to look back at past events in a changed way. But it was not just the thinking that changed. Something inside me switched - that's the only way to put it...I felt lighter, happier; different. Of course my own journey led me to may more insights but I would say that one had the most impact on how I felt about me. Could this be anywhere near what you are implying, or is it more technical than that? From that point I became more confident |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 18th, 2010, 12:50am I think you are both going in the right direction, in my opinion. The switch of realization is what we are all after, not just regarding the palps, they are just a symptom of the tension / anxieties within, we are searching for the reason for the internal conflict (agree - anyone?). Typer, when I read RLR's post I thought immediately of you. Quite a few on the forum are now having moments were they for once really believe that these palps are all in our minds and we are actually perpetuating them. The difference now is some members are REALLY believing it within themselves. Anxieties were there before the palps in VERY many of us, even though we probably didn't notice it growing and we probably have now buried them from our immediate consciousness, kind of like a safety mechanism. I think RLR i sguiding us on a journey to unearth them??? That's my take on it anyways. I think we could gloss over those deep issues, distract ourselves with life and move on, this would probably eliminate the palps and we woudl enjoy life again, but if these issues start to raise their heads again for whatever reason then we might very well be back to square 1. By tackling the issues now and acknowledging they are there, then doing the above ie getting on with a happy life, we should have a much better understanding to stop them from taking control ever again. Just my opinion and if you agree or disagree, great, I'd love to hear your thoughts ;) I'm REALLY itching to get on with this process, but I think RLR is keeping us going slow but steady, making sure this counts once and for all. Now which character would I be? Hmmmm..... :D |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Aug 18th, 2010, 3:07pm Okay, it's highly critical to take your time here. Read these passages as many times as you need to in order to formulate what you believe they represent to you. By all means, ask questions if you are experiencing difficulty. This is absolutely not somthing that is going to bring sudden and instant revelation. We're got some work to do together, so take a breath and relax. We've going to take all the time necessary so that everyone wishing to be involved moves along with the general tempo of this exericise. Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by ckgage on Aug 18th, 2010, 10:34pm I was reading back through all of the posts, trying to take it all in, and was intrigued by RLR's posing of a question that hasn't really been looked at yet. Did any of you struggle with anxiety that was focused on some other aspect of your health prior to your palpitations? I know that I have.......I have struggled with migraine for many years and started to get some associated tingling, which I convinced myself was some sort of brain tumor. An MRI and a trip to the neurologist put my mind at ease for a time, but any time there were strange sensations, etc. the fear would return, despite the evidence to the contrary. It took me time and prayer to fully let go of those anxieties. And now......the same type of anxiety related to palpitations. Had the tests, saw the specialist, still uneasy. Obviously I have a pattern going here! My anxiety regarding the palpitations has greatly diminished and I think I have come to terms with them as a normal part of being me, just like I did with migraines. So, my big question is how to prevent moving from palpitations to the next big medical "problem" in my life. I think for me it is as much a spiritual issue as a physical one. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by cazza on Aug 19th, 2010, 2:44am i fell the same i have had palpitations for 15 years now and at times really affected my lfe now for the last year i have awful stomach problems as well which aggrivate them and my anxirety is at an all time high that i think i have been having panic attacks certainly getting a grip on the anxiety is the key carol |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 19th, 2010, 7:00am Well we are supposed to be on a personal journey here, so here goes, hope I dont bore you to tears! Well I have been trying to dig deeper in to myself for a long time, way before coming to this forum, without much success, but with RLR’s questions I think I am finally getting somewhere. My OZ character would be a fearful one; I would be searching out the courage to basically Go For It! In my life, to have the courage to not fear failure in things I try. For MANY years now there has always been some problem restricting me going for things, bowel problems, palps, sleep issues – always something, they morph from one to another. I’m thinking out loud here – “perhaps I am self sabotaging myself here? Fearing failure, but possibly also success?” Basically fearing change, but also I don’t want to stay in the stagnant state I am currently in, I want out of the job I have been in for 18years, it’s a kind of stalemate. I want to work full time for myself, but I must have the financial security to still provide for my family and that is something my dead-end job provides. There is a way for me to do both at the start, just to prove I can make a go of my own business, but I think the fear issues are what hold me back. It’s very easy for me to blame these palps, in particular, to the passing of my mother 2 years ago and although they have ramped up in intensity since that time, when I look at it in the cold light of day it is blatantly obvious that the issues were there well before then. I also have another character in all this, one that seeks praise/recognition, I have done quite a few things over the years, like photography, as one example and went at them obsessively learning as much as I possibly could, to get as good as I possibly could, to get better than normal people and after even more soul searching I know the reason why. I strive for the praise I get from people when they say things like “that photo etc is incredible” it makes me feel REAL GOOD. It makes me feel like I am worth something; I appear to have strived for this praise since I was a child (I’m 40 now) and reading it back it seems so shallow and egotistical. Is it wrong to be like that? What is missing? I guess I don’t want to be just another number in the rat race and this is perhaps causing my inner turmoil. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Aug 19th, 2010, 5:05pm 656D61676163060 wrote:
I think the reason no one has really spoken about anxieties over other health issues is because most of the people here do not have existing health conditions to be concerned about. I have talked in a previous posting in this thread about Crohn's disease and how it has played a role in my mental health and anxieties/stress. In fact, I'll talk about it again because it was probably the tipping point with regards to anxiety onset. To me my symptoms showed up out of the blue and for no reason around about the time I was extremely worried and scared for my health. My Crohn's disease was responding badly to drugs, I had been on 2 eight week courses of corticosteroids, was on immunomodulators and was also having an 8 weekly infusion of a biologically active drug designed to suppress inflammation. Steroids were never a long term option because of their negative effects on health and my doctor was not going to keep me on them because of my age (22). Immunomodulators are a viable long term treatment but didn't seem to be having the effect that was desired so I stopped taking those. The infusions had also stopped working because I have developed antibodies to it. So here was me in a bit of a predicament, drugs weren't helping me and my life was apparantly going down the drain. My gastroenterologist asked me to think about surgery, but he said there were also other drugs that could be tried aswell. I wasn't advised to stop taking my drugs (immunomodulators were all I was taking at this time) as my disease was (and is) active but I did anyway, much to the dismay of my doctor. They weren't doing anywhere near enough for me to keep taking them, coupled with the fact that they literally suppress your immune system and leave you vulnerable to getting ill, so I decided to stop them and try something else. I went through some phases that I think everyone with an illness goes through, such as trying diets, natural herbal stuff, lifestyle changes, etc., needless to say nothing really worked. I have found a couple of 'natural anti-inflammatory' supplements that have helped me beyond a placebo and I still take some. The 'protocol' with my kind of disease is to control the symptoms and try to achieve long term remission, based on the fact that the cause is unknown to medical science (or anything else, for that matter) at this time. With this obvious logic in mind I decided I wanted to do exactly that, suppress the symptoms. So now I take an anti-diarrheal and wind-eze and my Crohn's is well under control, I think. I have also made some important self discoveries such as all the pain and cramps that I've suffered with over the last 3 years is apparently not even caused by the ulceration and inflammation, just by the diarrhea alone!! I literally have no pain or discomfort now that I am on this so basic of a 'protocol'. Sometimes I wonder if the doctors taking care of me and my disease really even care enough to try and get to the bottom of it or just want to follow the standards regardless of how well they seem to be working. I just can't fathom why I was never given some anti-diarrheals, seeing as how that has been my main symptom of Crohn's for years. His [GI doc] protocol is: suppress the inflammation and the diarrhea will resolve itself. While that's great, it never worked for me they way he expected. A simple anti-diarrheal and anti-flatulant all those years ago would have spared months of weight loss and pain. I also don't understand something else. The drugs I currently take are very safe drugs, wind-eze is not even absorbed in the bowels making it extremely safe with only limited GI side effects. The other drug I take, immodium, is also only minimally absorbed (1-2%). Compare these two drugs with the drugs I was put on: corticosteroids, immunosuppressants and biologically active drugs with horrific potential for dangerous and lifelong side effects and I just don't know where I went wrong. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Aug 19th, 2010, 5:05pm - Continued from above. Anyway, that's a story in itself but I bring it up here as evidence of my growing anxiety and stress. The fact that I seemed to be getting worse and worse with no answer in sight was the scariest thought I have ever faced. An uncontrollable disease that's continually worsening my health. It is certainly the most traumatic thing that has ever happened to me. Thinking back on it, I actually remember the days I spent in my bedroom just lying on my bed, thinking on my whole situation, scared to death of tomorrow and what's to come. Frightened of going back to my doctor and having surgery, frightened of being on drugs and frightened that I have this disease. I realise now that what I was feeling then is exactly what I've been feeling since the onset of my anxiety: fear, the only exception is that it wasn't causing any physical symptoms then, but I guess they developed with months of chronic worrying and being fearful of what's the come. I think my problem is that it's become so ingrained that I consider it normal. My 'normal' is anxiety, while other peoples 'normal' is not. So, I think I am one step closer to the answer. I think I am going say that would be fair to assume that the fear and worry that I have had has played a big role in the development of my anxiety and my symptoms. So, for me at least, the answer would seem to be obvious: eliminate the cause of fear. Unfortunately, unless someone cures Crohn's disease tomorrow, I can't do that. I can however, change the way I think about my disease and health by learning and obtaining knowledge about my disease, my health, how I can affect my health for better or worse, etc., etc.. I think I, too, am beginning to come to the realisation that what has been, and is, happening to me, is a product of my entire state of mind. We have an adopted wild pet cat who was born and lived in a warehouse on an industrial estate for the first 6-8 weeks of his life. We took him in and he has become much more tame but he has retained almost all of his 'wild' side. He is very jumpy, alert and wary of his surroundings. Strangers can't get near him, he will avoid any sort of danger, for example, he will cower down and run away if you hold a glass of water over him and tilt it on its side. In a way he is 'anxious' all the time because he was born in an environment that was dangerous to his life and it is ingrained in his though patterns. Our other cat, though, was born in a nice comfy living room and he is completely different. He has no 'wild' in him whatsoever and won't even budge from his comfy sofa for anyone. If we hold a glass over him and tilt it, I don't even think he understands that water will pour on to him if he doesn't move, and he stays put (don't worry, I've never actually done it!). My point being, our behavious are obviously learned ones, that we have obtained through false association, ones that we have 'thought' ourself in to and as such, there is obviously a way to 'think' ourselves out of them. The problem being: how? I don't think it's as easy as it sounds. It's not just going to be a 'think positive' answer, it's much more than that. Chronic, detrimental thinking seems to be the cause (for me, at least), but the answer is not going to be as easy as just thinking more positively. The detrimental thoughts must first be elimininated, and therein lies the problem. If it was as easy as just not thinking badly, we'd all be fine. The problem exists because we are somewhat unable to control those negative thoughts, we must learn to control them, though, as they seem to be the root of the problem. Looking forward to more responses, George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Aug 19th, 2010, 5:51pm Okay, we've got a couple of good points to draw out of the general postings here to help move a bit farther. Mention was made of "being fearful." You'll recognize this to be a very common theme among most all who visit the site. The focus, however, must extend beyond any specific issue which makes you fearful and more toward why the fear itself seems to be universally present regardless of whether it's your health or other circumstances. This is the direction I would like you to proceed. Give thought to why fear would be produced without associating it with the palpitations or similar focus. The second point made that needs to be highlighted is that positive thinking is not the remedy for negative thinking. This is precisely true and does more to elevate or intensify circumstances rather than diminish them because negative thinking is merely a side-effect of the actual underlying problem and you're not about to bring about resolution with positive thinking. Granted, negative thinking is not productive and can lead to certain outcomes, but trying to combat it with something erroneously preceived to be the opposite will do absolutely nothing to produce true insight and actual resolution. If you doubt this to be true, try it for yourself. Try to extinguish negative thought patterns with positive thinking. It will bring the negative content to the forefront to the point that it exceeds any attempt to block it from awareness. The harder you try, the seemingly more intense the negative thoughts become. This is purely because one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Here we have to examine why the negative thinking is being produced by actively listening to yourself when it occurs. Many times, these negative ruminations represent fragments which don't really represent much, so you have to pause when they occur and do your best to create a plausible context from it. Do you understand what I mean here? In other words, these thoughts are rehearsed so often that you rarely attend to them anymore and they more constitute an abbreviated form strictly necessary to produce the associated emotional response. Do you best to define these ruminations into statements that are clear. Once you can establish a complete form of the ruminations, you will be better able to begin tracking their origins. So now we have two points which we must carry beyond the area of specifics and look more broadly at this point to discern what the mean generally before we seek out any more precise meaning or interpretation. Do you see? The more focused you remain at this point, the quicker you arrive at the answer so to speak. The problem is that there is only one answer and it's lying much farther away than your ability to reach at this stage. In analogy, if you wish to locate a red hydrant on the corner of 5th and Main Street in the town of Hampton in the state New Jersey in the United States of America located on the continent of North America, you will never be able to visualize it from where you stand on the other side of the world. You must proceed in an orderly and logical fashion and bring your final destination within reach a little at a time, turn after turn along the journey until you finally arrive. The very same is true for the journey we are taking together. We must think globally and in general terms long before we begin seeking out the regional area, the local area and then ultimately our final point of destination. We must gain a certain level of insight about the continent within you, then the country, then the state, the region, the city, the street and finally the red hydrant. Just as it is with a roadmap, we cannot skip any step along the way, for it requires the insight of prior surroundings in order to be equipped to properly and accurately understand any subsequent turn and location. Are you with me? Folks influenced by anxiety feel compelled to skip intermediate steps and instead try to predict the final outcome. This is true in this instance as it is with daily life. I encourage all of you participating to recognize this tendency and pause when you detect it. I'm here to help you learn how to properly introspect, to actually discover circumstances about you that you are likely entirely unaware of and to draw into the open, issues that are presently masked or suppressed as a means to diminish the anxiety otherwise being produced. In this early stage, you will find yourselves constantly breaking old routines in order to regain sight of the yellow brick road rather than a multitude of detours. You're not alone and I'll be here to help guide you if you run aground. If you can become determined enough, I'm going to gently provide you guidance to the extent that you and you alone create the much desired change in your lives. It will happen. Don't lose hope and don't turn away. We're embarking on something extremely real here and extremely challenging. You'll be astonished, however, when you arrive at your ultimate destination. This endeavor extends light years beyond merely providing you with reassurance concerning your medical concerns and we're going to head straight into the heart of the matter, in a manner of speaking and one day soon, the reassurance that you now so diligently seek from an external source like this forum, will actually return to its rightful place within you. It's going very well. Let's continue. Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 20th, 2010, 12:45am Brilliant post George - you make some excellent points. RLR, I think I get most of what you are saying - but I am struggling now has to what else I can do to further my journey beyond my previous post, I'll go back and reread your post, but I feel a bit lost in my direction right now. Just one other point RLR I must admit I feel a little apprehensive on this journey at the moment, questions going through my head like "what if THIS doesnt work, will I be stuck like this forever, will there be another way out - is THIS the ONLY way to be cured?" |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Aug 20th, 2010, 2:52pm If you're experiencing doubts like those described, then you're progressing just fine. You must realize that it's going to require to you look at yourself from a very objective point of view and that sort of engagement is very difficult without practice. You're at the surface of recognizing factors exist, but it would be impossible for you to have already reached the level necessary to truly recognize and understand what lies at the base of your difficulties. This is evident in your posting as well. Nothing detrimental is going to happen to you as a consequence of introspection and self-discovery. It is root of the irrational beliefs being generated that you're after, not the patterns themselves. Again, you have to refrain from cause-and-effect thinking patterns which draw innacurate conclusions. The only premise which will result in being "stuck" is to once again employ the same characteristic patterns which have produced the contemporary issues that concern and trouble you. You're doing fine. Just relax and participate to whatever level makes you comfortable. It's of no surprise to me that folks will even step away for a period and subsequently return. This is a normal evolution and I'll tell you straight up front that many people here do not participate because they are extremely afraid to do so. It is this very premise which they must overcome in order to finally experience change in their lives, but again I cannot simply produce the answer for them or provide them with a hat to wear. They must be ready and willing. True and lasting change is a transformation that absolutely must take place from within, based upon insight. My objective here is to merely guide you until you reach that goal. It's been done successfully on many occasions and your circumstances are no different. My suggestion is to slow down and take more time to understand the circumstances in a more global sense. We're far from getting ready to move to the next level. We're still examining the continent, so to speak. If you feel anxious in already anticipating your final destination, I would submit that you need to reflect upon this heavily and to what extent it defines patterns in your life to a similar extent. This sort of activity is not easy by any means and the answer you seek does not lie within reach in the manner being inferred. You should be producing far more questions than answers at this juncture, so don't feel as though it's necessary to produce a summation at this point. Again, you're doing just fine. Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jazzmynn on Aug 20th, 2010, 10:51pm RLR, Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this is a process of self-discovery that takes time and individual effort. I believe that we need to do some self-examination of what behaviors and thoughts are associated with the palpitations. Evidently, there is something we as individuals are either not aware of or overlook. Although the feelings we experience from the palpitations are similar, what drives them is very different to each of us. I am very excited to proceed! Jazzmynn |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Aug 21st, 2010, 5:13am You are precisely correct. The process of self-discovery to the extent that it truly becomes beneficial is both time-intensive and challenging, but nevertheless takes place by countless people all the time and with a great deal of success. It's an endeavor that requires you to proceed beyond habitual practices which have intentionally been established to avoid examination. Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Aug 21st, 2010, 3:07pm 766876240 wrote:
I’m quite enjoying the direction of the thread and am finding it quite a challenge to even come up with responses now. It is becoming increasingly difficult to proceed as others have mentioned but I would rather see it as a challenge and adventure than a barrier. You have talked in the past about avoidance rather than confronting problems so I will not avoid this one and will try to help move us along a little more. You have asked us to discuss why fear is present in all cases regardless of the causes (health, financial concerns, etc.) of the fear itself. From an objective viewpoint, fear is a defence mechanism of some kind that has developed through evolution to help an organism escape danger. We perceive danger in many ways (my health concerns, for example) but regardless of what causes the danger, whether it be financial concern, health, or a hungry lion, the body responds the same way by producing fear in varying intensities (based on our perception) as a defence mechanism, which in-turn activates the ‘fight-or-flight’ response which is responsible for the physical symptoms we experience. The old saying “All roads lead to Rome” sounds appropriate, would this be accurate? The problem being that we do not seem to have the ability to truly realise that we are in fact, not in danger. In another thread we were discussing why even though we know our symptoms are caused by anxiety, we still have them. I made the analogy that you can’t switch off an emotion or feeling simply by recognising it with the example of a gun pointed at your head. Knowing you are scared of the gun doesn’t make the fear stop. You countered with words to the effect of: would you still be scared if you knew the gun was unloaded? Of course the problem is that even though through rational and logical means we are able to determine our symptoms are not harmful, our ‘gut feelings’ tell us otherwise and we are unable to realise it. In other words, even though we can all come here and say “I know they’re harmless” and make ourselves think we believe it, most of us don’t actually truly believe it. Surely then, the reason that our anxiety is chronically elevated above baseline levels is because of our continual misperception of danger to the point where we are literally in a constant state of low-grade fear. In the early stages of this development we were probably not even aware of what was taking place on a biological level until symptoms began to present themselves. The symptoms themselves also act as a catalyst to the cycle, inducing yet more fear which perpetuates the cycle and when left long enough, the original cause is forgotten and focus is solely on the symptoms themselves. Is this a correct assessment or just a convenient one? I think this may be what has happened to me. I can only assume the misperception is based on a lack of knowledge and understanding of the events that are taking place. The instinctive, unconscious responses which govern our thoughts and emotional responses are controlled by our brains automatically (such as fear), but we have a certain degree of control over how we perceive them. For example, we may become desensitised to certain events that once made us fearful because the rational side of our thoughts has been able to make the determination that the danger is only perceived and holds no bearing over our actual safety. Take the following example: a single tribesman out on the planes of Africa would be terrified if confronted by a 450lb lion. He knows his natural defences are no match for the lions, he knows he can’t outrun it and he knows he has no weapons: he’s going to die. However, that tribesman’s fear would likely diminish if another 10 tribesman came to his aid all wielding spears and flames. Some might even chuckle at the turn of events; the burly ‘king of the jungle’ now fleeing in terror because he had a ‘panic attack’, only his was in response to real danger. A lot of people use the chicken and the egg analogy when describing their anxiety and symptoms, as if the symptoms came first, which was what caused their anxiety. We don’t seem to be aware of fear that was growing in response to something else, well before the onset of any symptoms, because the symptoms have now taken precedence in our minds. Is this true? Continued below. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Aug 21st, 2010, 3:09pm 766876240 wrote:
I think this one is going to be a little more difficult to try and find out because I haven’t got a clue why we have negative thoughts. They appear at random, but are focused. With me, my negative thoughts always involve deterioration of my health. I don’t have a general negative tone to my thinking, only a negative tone to my thinking in regards to what I have anxiety over: my health. I think it would be similar if I had an anxiety disorder over spiders or snakes; I would constantly fear being bitten or dying from a bite and my negative thoughts would revolve around that. Sometimes random thoughts will pop in to my mind such as visions of myself in a worse position than the one I’m in now. In hospital, getting another disease, worsening of the one I already have, etc. and I produce detailed ‘fantasies’ where I actively think on scenarios that are entirely non—existent. Sometimes I have detailed visions of myself gripping my chest in terror as I keel over and die from a massive heart attack, or visions of myself slowly dying in hospital of some terrible cancer. Based on what I’ve just written I think it might be fair to assume that these negative thoughts might also have a root in fear, too. RLR said that they are just a side effect of the anxiety, much like the rest of our symptoms. Even though they are a psychological symptom, surely they are a produced by the same mechanisms and should be considered no more or less a side effect as tension induced chest pains, etc.. I think these negative thought patterns stem from the cloud of fear which I have encompassed myself in. I find it interesting that they all revolve around my health and nothing else, which proves they are only a product of anxiety. I’m going to end this abruptly because I can’t think of much more to say on this. I don’t fully understand your original message in the quote above regarding the negative thoughts and would appreciate some direction here. Hope we can all continue this as it is becoming increasingly interesting. George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by ckgage on Aug 21st, 2010, 10:03pm I really relate to what George said about a low-grade fear that is constant, in the background, wreaking havoc in a true physical sense. I often become aware of these thought patterns throughout my own day, as well. I'm thinking as I write here, so it's not super thought out, but don't you think that the idea of "fear" implies something to be fearful of? What is the worst that can happen........long illness, death, even? Those things definitely sound bad to me, but what if I need to redefine those worse-case-scenarios and see them differently? If I reframe them in a real way as something to not be feared but accepted, not in a positive-thinking type of a way that a previous post mentioned, but true acceptance, then there would be nothing to fear, right? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 22nd, 2010, 7:40am It seems we can relate to each other on some levels and yet individually our reasons differ. That is, we can relate to the fear and our active (not necessarily over active) imaginations. In my opinion, this is fed by things we hear and see, either on the TV or in passing conversation or even from experience. I think this is called phenomenology. See http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/phenomenology/ There are better links and books. Although this sites more in the world of philosophy, in the recent past (last 30 years or so) its been included in certain types of therapy, especially person centred therapies. Its interpretation is something like this. Lets say (fiction) my mother died 3 months ago. I am starting to feel a little better and am invited to a party. Music is playing, there are loud voices every where and I am trying to concentrate on what my friend is talking to me about. But on the other side of the room someone is talking about their mother’s funeral. I am not aware I have heard this because although I have logged it, it is sitting on the edge of my phenomenological field and my own bereavement brings it inside. I suddenly start to feel down and think of my mother and her funeral. Not sure if this makes sense. Equally, have you noticed since you get these things, you notice more and more people’s comments about someone dying of heart problems. Or suddenly a huge amount of people have AF or VF or it seems to flash on the news and in papers how X dropped dead of a heart condition no-one knew they had. These things have always been around the edge of our conscious awareness and yet its not until we have this fear that we bring them in to everyday awareness and these thoughts invade our lives. They even come in when you are not experiencing palps. They invade more and more until we sit in a bubble of fear. I guess this is why CBT can be so successful because it aims to override the invasive thoughts, replacing them with more positive, uplifting, and healing thoughts. I guess this is why some people swear by affirmations or meditation. cont... |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 22nd, 2010, 7:55am I can see why RLR has us think about this as a collective but as individuals with differing lives and reasons. We each have come to this point from our different paths. I have been in a position where I have had to constantly review my psyche, although there is not one person imo ever achieves knowing themselves completely, the point is to make smaller the more unconscious thoughts/actions and enlarge the more conscious awareness. There is something called the Johari Window if anyone wants to think about that more Despite my hard work on me, life has taken its toll these past few years. To say I have been stressed is an understatement. The only other time I suffered from anxiety and panic was in 1993. I had a medical problem and operation. I lost a lot of blood afterward and was rushed from one hospital to another. I was in fact post traumatised by the event and for a year suffered severe panic attacks, constantly visualising it happening again and even worse scenarios. (id get cancer like the lady in the bed next to me!) I got better slowly by using visualisation and affirmations and therapy as well as acupuncture by a Buddhist monk for nerves. After a few months I recovered completely. That time I did not have palpitations. I have to get myself back on that journey I was on back in 1993… need to get motivated. The one thing that I have observed by using this thread is the tension in my body. I am not sure if it will apply any of you but, every hour I check my body tension and feel its tight and tense. I have to take three deep breaths to loosen up. The original cause of my stress was and is 4 years of house renovations. (Not the original plan). Its ongoing and not a day goes by where I say, vacuum and it stays clean. Every single day, dust and bits of wallpaper, or wall or something everywhere. We are now having to sell up as soon as it is finished due to a financial crisis. So I wont even get to enjoy the fruits of my stress. This has cause depression and utter frustration and anger. So my fear is actually based in those things, in particular anger at persons as well as myself for allowing this to happen to me. >:( |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 22nd, 2010, 11:23am Hi Typer, I can fully relate to the body tension you mention, particularly in the diaphragm area, kind of like holding yourself on a mild level of alert almost constanty. I see you can relate exactly your cause of anxiety and increased tension to a particular event / time, I thought I had traced mine back too, if you see my previous posts, but RLR seems to want us to not look at cause and effect - so do we need to go even deeper somehow? Afterall many people have far more troubles than us, but have none of the physical or mental issues that we do. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 22nd, 2010, 11:58am I would guess that it will be different for all of us. If I go much deeper I'll disappear ha ha! I know someone who had palps after her fathers death. She was given beta blockers to help with the symptoms. After a while she stopped and is fine now. The bereavement for her was the trigger/cause...whatever. But not everyone gets them after a bereavement. She did have another few days of them when she had a virus which made her sick etc. But they went and she recognised that what caused them to return was the fact that she was staying in a friends house when the virus started up. The stress brought them on. I am sure not everyone has some deep rooted problem that must be uncovered. I do think though that inside us we kind of know that we have these because of where we are psychologically, albeit for very obvious reasons, to the not so obvious. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Aug 22nd, 2010, 6:14pm I know from communicating with others that physical tension is something that's common among anxiety sufferers. I have constant muscle tension in my legs, my upper torso and shoulders. I know it is the source of the chest pains I feel intermittently and that it's harmless. I think physical tension is yet another by-product of fear but I don't know if examining it in any details will reveal anything. Perhaps we should continue to discuss fear and why it is present in all of us regardless of the cause. I don't really have anything to add to my previous post on fear being a defence mechanism and the physical reasons for its presence. Also, it is interesting to note that both you, Jason and Typer, feel that you are already very deep in to this process while I feel as if I haven't even penetrated the surface yet. I feel as if I am only at the start of a long process and that any discoveries I have made up to this point are relatively insignificant. I am also aware that we all seem to still be continually waiting for the 'next step', initiated by Dr. Rane each time we make our postings. I may be inaccurate here but people seem to be eager to move on without fully exploring what we already have. I still don't see much discussion going on regarding fear and negative thinking, which is where RLR has said he would like this to proceed. Perhaps we should focus more on continuing the discussion on fear and negative thinking for a good time so we fully understand this part of our discoveries, before trying to move on and do something else. Jason, I read your posting on how you don't really know where to go next in this process of self discovery and that you are having doubts. Obviously I don't know your thoughts on this whole process but I get the impression that you are trying to be too precise and specific. RLR said we need to broaden our thoughts in this regard and try not to relate the discussion to our symptoms, i.e. why fear causes symptoms; rather, we should discuss the fact that the fear is present in all of us and forget about the symptoms it seems to be causing. Essentially the symptoms are irrelevant at this time. George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 23rd, 2010, 12:22am Yes, I agree with you George, as mentioned in my last post, looking for cause and effect (symptoms) does not seem to be where RLR is directing us here, so we should see that as pretty much irrelevant. That is what the other posts are for. Fear, I think, is the big deal here and finding out why we had this ingrained fear before the symptoms even started. Yes I do feel that I have analyzed myself quite thoroughly so far, before I came to this forum too, but as RLR has said, at this stage I am apparently not capable of going deep enough, it's not possible for me to see the true issues yet, I'm not far enough along the journey to see the finish line. But, my problem is, now I have gone this far, I feel stuck, if I am not capable of seeing the issues at the stage I am at, then how do I progress to the stage where I can? Yes I am in a hurry to get to the answers, I feel I have been stuck with my anxieties for long enough and I want them gone - naturally. I am however fully prepared to take as long as it takes and I realize that these things can't be rushed - but the frustration is I dont know HOW to proceed any further now, so I feel my progress has stalled. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 23rd, 2010, 11:57am Quote:
George forgive me for giving that impression. I have only scratched the surface in this particular scenario.I meant that as a psychotherapist I have been required to have long term therapy as well as supervision, both of which have uncovered many insights. However, this journey never ends and I find myself on another journey here - I am on a path that is foreign to me and am eager to uncover yet more layers. On fear. This is my take on it, which may only be valid to me and the few people who I know do think in similar ways as me. I believe that everyone has fear tucked away - in particular fear of death. Some may feel more at ease by and feel braver toward the fact that they will indeed end, never the less the unknown is scary. Unless one is suicidal, I do feel for the most part, people tend to want to survive..it is in my opinion, an instinct. We look both ways crossing the road etc, even those who may say, I have no fear of death. I could say I do not fear death but my instinct is to stay alive. So for me, the root of fear is annihilation and although I can say on one level - BUT I DO BELIEVE YOU when you say I am fine....on another level, my instinct kicks in when my major organ does strange things and when I feel as though it will maybe even stop. So my intellectual self is saying, don't be silly its fine, but my instinct self is reacting to survive. When someone close to us dies, or someone we know, or even reading that a famous person died can bring forward the hidden fear...the one that none of us think about all the time. For most people they just don't think about it. We seem made to defend against such thoughts. But if something brings it so forward - so into our conscious awareness that it almost haunts us, well then we have fear. But we do not associate it to anything in the moment and therefore it feels like this fear came from nowhere. Not sure if that makes sense. Trying to type rather than say something is quite hard for me. On a different note in a way - today I saw a long term friend and very experienced colleague. She has integrated mindfulness into her way of working and we discussed my palps as I had said to her that I would like to learn to meditate properly. She went on to tell me that she had cured several things by meditation properly and some of what she described was very like Claire Weeks ideas. Anyone here read Claire weeks? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 24th, 2010, 12:56am Yes I have read some Clare Weekes, from the basics I have read about mindfulness it seems that it is all about observing the inner thoughts and realizing that they are not really who we are, they don't define us. It all seesm to point to the way we perceive everything which leads to a state change within. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 24th, 2010, 3:09am Yes it is like that. There are a few types of medication, one is a body scan. My friend says she has been able to rid herself of long term migraines using it. From the little I know, it seeks to find incongruence and that sometimes, well in fact a lot of the time we do things we really dont want to do, or even be what we dont want to be. There is an idea that the body gives us messages about it. At the moment its the root I find myself going. Have been watching this which I found quite interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nwwKbM_vJc |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 24th, 2010, 4:06am Very interesting Typer, I'll take a look at that soon. I think we as a group are on to something with the Fear thing. We are creating the fear within ourselves, each of us in a different way, from a different set of life experiences, and from where I am standing I believe I am using it as a kind of defence mechanism, it's keeping me safe in this place I currently am. Even though the palpitation symptoms are not nice, perhaps the fear of the unknown or fear of failure is potentially a worse place for me specifically to venture at this time? Unresolved conflict??? Perhaps I need to ask myself - why do I prefer it here? Why do I feel it's safer here? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 24th, 2010, 7:08am fear is worse than what we fear. If its failure, or any other fear, its so awful to feel. That is why I am going to give the mindfulness meditations a try, to see if I can observe it and unpick it in a way that may tell me why my body is doing this. At least we are now thinking outside of our own boxes |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 24th, 2010, 11:51am Yes I agree, minfulness has been around for a VERY long time (2000 years?) - as you know, even though it might seem new to us now. As it involved being in and taking note of the present and relaxation then as far as I can see it can only do us good. I am going to start too. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Aug 24th, 2010, 1:42pm I'm going to try and talk a little more on negative thinking and its impact. Since my last posting I've tried to make an effort to actively listen to my emotions such that I make note to pause for a moment each time I have what I perceive to be a negative thought or image. I am sure I missed many because I have become used to the process but from the ones I've remembered I think I can see some obvious traits. Negative thoughts always seem have a trigger. I noted in my previous post that they seemingly appear at random times but I think I was wrong in saying that. An obvious example comes to mind. I have actively avoided watching hospital dramas on TV (Grey's Anatomy, ER, etc.) because they remind me of my own fears. I very much dislike seeing people having heart attacks or dying of diseases in hospital (even if they are just actors). I have always found these shows very boring and would normally just yawn my way through them, and have always disliked the 'deathly' tone of these programs, but I never once had a problem with actually seeing one on TV before my anxiety. When Michael Jackson died and the news reporters were all saying it was cardiac-related I purposely avoided watching the news; not because I was affraid of hearing about a man that'd died, but I didn't want any reminders of heart attacks or illnesses because these were things that I was having serious anxiety over. Previously when my anxiety was much worse than it is now (I would say it its height), I was seemingly bombarded with reminders of the specific things that I was worried about, notably heart attacks. Every single day I would see things about heart attacks, death and illness. Michael Jackson's heart stopped and killed him (albeit drug induced), I was obsessively looking up heart related issues on Google, news reporters seemed to be reporting heart attacks constantly, even people in online games would have usernames like "h34rt4774ck" (if you can't read that, it says "Heart Attack"). I even started becoming superstitious to the point where I started thinking it was a sign of things to come. The point of the above paragraph is that these negative thoughts also seem to be rooted in fear. When I look back on the above times and remember, there really wasn't any force working against me producing all these heart related events, it was my own mind actively seeking them out and recognising them in every detail. I was paying no attention to the other events in my life and focusing in on one or two in particular. I will post more on this aspect of our anxiety at another time when I have more to add. George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Aug 24th, 2010, 6:35pm Sometimes people stay in a situation, (anxiety/fear), because they are used to it and change, even for the better, can be anxiety producing. I do not think this is where I am at. I have fear, a lot of fear. Ultimately I think it may be of dying or being on my own and needing to depend on myself. My father passed away in 2001 - it was very traumatic as I was very close to him. My mother is now on hospice, and I see her decline. I work in a long term care facility as a director of nursing and I see many people in their last days of life. Many of them are very accepting and are not fearful. They welcome it. Some are fearful. I don't think for myself my anxiety is based on one particular thing. It may have started with tachycardia episodes, but I think it was an accumulation of stress over a period of time that brought on the tachycardia. I began to ruminate and become fearful of the tachycardia, so that is what I focused in on. But that is not really the cause of the anxiety. I think it has more to do with being afraid to be on my own and a dependency problem because somehow I must be very insecure, even though on the exterior, most people think I am very confident. The negative thoughts and what you tell yourself can just add to the anxiety - the what if's (what if I get tachycardia during this meeting? What if I feel faint? ) I think for myself it is a feeling of not being in control. It's like I have lost confidence in my body when at one time I was proud of it. I think I have made progress, but I have must more to work on. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 25th, 2010, 1:35am Hi Jo / George, :) I’m not RLR, but I’d like to comment on your posts as we are on this journey together and I think commenting on each others posts might, just might, help us all along, even if by accident. Hope so. Hi Jo, I agree with you that people can be afraid to leave the safety of the familiarity of what they know – anxiety for us usually, or is it now just a habit to have our anxiety threshold ticking over so high that it now seems the norm? And for sure focusing in on it with negativity does certainly make it much worse. I guess working where you do exposes you to your fears frequently. But other people have a similar job and don’t experience the same problems, so there is something else going on too I guess – as you know. I bet most people see many of us on this forum as quite confident, apparently people think that of me too – but it’s really an act, I’d feel ashamed if people knew how I really felt inside, so I guess we hide that from them? we are ashamed to show our true feelings as they seem weak. We are not the person that we want to be at the moment are we. Perhaps that goes for ALL o fus with these issues? What do you think? Hi George, I guess the negative thoughts seemed not to have a trigger at 1st because they have now become an instinctual habit? And you are or were avoiding exposure to your fears by turning away from the news and those hospital type programs, because they remind you very vividly of your own fears – as you said and I think this is a classic anxiety sign. It’s kind of like buying a type of car that you have only seen once or twice before, then seeing that same type everywhere you drive now you are looking out for it. Before it was not on your radar, now it is. It’s the same with us now; our radar is set to consciously or subconsciously be on alert for things relating to our anxieties in any way. As you know, the question is why do we get to that stage, when normal people don’t? Do you have lots of spare time in your day to ruminate on your issues George? I know I have way too much time and it certainly doesn’t help at all. Are all of us on this forum using our mind space for the wrong thoughts? Tyler spoke about mindfulness and you have done some of that right now by stopping to actually observe your thoughts, you have observed the fearful thought and found that actually you are NOT your fearful thought at all - do you get what I am saying? it's a weird thing when we take a step back and just observe what is going on in our own minds - so much of it is habit and negativity, which is why I think we feel out of control... and I think that is a big issue with most of us here, the fear of being out of control of our lives, out of control of our own bodies, but in reality we only have control of our minds in this very moment - ok that's too deep for me! I'm out of here! ;D |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 25th, 2010, 1:54am I think when we look at RLR's analogy using OZ, we can see that all of the main characters were very unhappy with who they were deep down to their very core. And I'd say I am not who I want to be or expected to be when I was younger either - I have turned out to be less than my hopes and expectations. This is not about money and material things, but my general being. Perhaps I fear staying like this for ever? Perhaps most of us do??? But what/who do I / we have to be inside to become complete and at ease? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by ckgage on Aug 25th, 2010, 7:16am Jason, I agree with what you are saying. We feel out of control of our thoughts and of our bodies, and the anxiety stems from that. What makes it hard for me is that it feels like you cannot escape the anxiety. You can't take a vacation from it. But I think what we are all coming around to here is that we DO have quite a bit of control......if we get control over our thoughts and how they leap to illogical conclusions, we will, in a sense, have control over our bodies as well and the symptoms that come up simply from anxiety. The reason RLR is a comfort is that he speaks the truth from experience and the truth brings comfort. We go to the doctor because he speaks the truth. We read up on Google because we think it will give us the truth of the matter, although we don't have the ability to sift through what we are reading well enough to have it actually BE truth. These are all external sources that bring me temporary relief from being anxious. Go to the doctor and he tells me I am fine.......feel better for a time until some strange new sensation crops up and the cycle starts all over again. How can I stop the cycle myself, without the constant need for affirmation from an external source? Of course, there are times when you DO need to go to the doctor, and for a person that struggles with anxiety related to health, that can be really hard to determine. But, really, I don't want to have to go to the doctor to put my mind at ease when I have already been told that everything is ok. My control returns to me (don't want to speak for everyone!) when I can speak the truth of what I know to myself, make the choice to not be afraid of what is to come, and get on with my life! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 25th, 2010, 12:43pm My previous post #95 seems to apply to a few of us and the idea that we become intensely aware of things that were always there, like news of heart attacks because our fear has us on high alert. I would agree with that for me personally and am now becoming more aware of RLR's explanation that the whole of the nervous system is involved. The part that effects the heart is more concerning because its a major organ and when it goes out of sync its so scary. But, in reality I have so many symptoms that prove to me my whole system is up and jangled. A door blowing closed now not only make me jump, but has me shaking for a while. Loud noise bothers me more and bright lights. I was so busy thinking: how do I get rid of these darn palps and calm the vagus nerve that I neglected to ask myself: how do I calm my whole nervous system? This is what I feel must do. I need to find calm again and to do this I will employ some help, e.g. audio tapes for meditation. From this I hope to find my own personal reasons for what is happening to me. I did a mindfulness meditation on YouTUBE yesterday and just that one meditation caused me to realize how angry I feel/felt toward someone. I did not care if the anger was right or just...I just accepted that I am angry about a situation. I slept better last night than I have in weeks. Was that because the meditation, the insight gained? I just dont know yet |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Aug 25th, 2010, 2:09pm 163B322730420 wrote:
Yes, I have other symptoms too that most of the time I don't recognise. Loud noises also make me startle and can also leave me feeling a little shaky. Bright lights sometimes bother me, too. I have chest pains and shortness of breath, increased heart rate. My hands also seem to tremble mildy if I try to hold them out steadily. I get shooting pains in certain places, I'm irritable and have little patience anymore. Again, I tend not to focus on any of those and remain focused on the ones that I fear the most, such as chest pain and increased heart rate. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Jules on Aug 26th, 2010, 2:15am Hi, am new here, so sorry if this has already been suggested, but has anyone read "Self Help For Your Nerves" by Dr Claire Weekes? This book completely changed my attitude to palpitations and all the other physical symptoms of anxiety, after years of suffering. I strongly recommend it to help put your symptoms in perspective - it worked for me! Anyway back to the thread... I have never been injured in a car accident, but have amazingly walked away from a couple of motorway pile-ups unscathed. Every time I drive past the scene of the worst one now, whether I am aware of it or not, I feel faint! However, after reading Dr Weeke's book I can now smile to myself and say "there I go again!". Similiarly I now ignore the (increasingly mild) palpitations. The book is not the only reason I decided (and it IS a decision) to stop being a slave to anxiety and palpitations. 5 years ago my husband died suddenly of a heart attack. "All the more reason to be anxious", perhaps?! He was a very fit and healthy man, - triathlete, runner, obsessive about food, fat, calories, etc etc. Had more books on fitness than the local library. Weight-trained 3 or 4 times a week, never smoked or drank. Never ill. The very LAST person anyone would expect to die of a heart attack. He just came back from a short run, felt dizzy, and dropped. The post mortem found all his arteries were clogged, and the coroner said if he had not been so fit he would have died 10-15 years earlier. The point I am making is this. Just like a car accident, there was NOTHING he could have done to prevent his death. In fact he did EVERYTHING HUMANLY POSSIBLE to stack the odds in his favour! Since then, whenever I am asked about him and relate "the story", there is always someone who has a similar tale of someone they know. Never once has anyone said: "and he had palpitations for years you know, and the doctors said it was just anxiety!". So get the book, and laugh at yourself, as my husband used to laugh at me and say "Get off your a*s, stop worrying and go for a run!" Sending you all a big hug! ;) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 26th, 2010, 2:42am Welcome Jules and thank you for your input. So sorry to read about your loss. I know it was some years ago, but from what you say, it must have been a shock. I cant speak for all of us, but I know some of us have read Claire Weeks. For me personally, that is when I began to feel a lot less scared. Even so I am determined to be free of them because for me, when they happen, I can feel quite faint with some types I get. Not all of them do that to me, but some cause me to feel as though I am underwater |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Aug 26th, 2010, 4:20am Jason - In answer to your questions, I do not want people to know about my anxiety/panic disorder. Some people at work do know, because I had to take a leave for a couple of months several months ago. I have been back at work now for two months. One thing I did find out though was that several other people at work either have panic disorder or some kind of anxiety and are on medication. So, many people have problems. In my position, I do feel I need to appear confident and strong in order to do my job. So, I always try to portray confidence, which I think helps me feel confident. I know I do my job well, I have been a Director of Nursing for 20 years in various facilities. I have a lot going for me, so why I have this anxiety is hard to figure out. Other than, like I said in another post, I do not like to be alone (dependency problem), I need to learn to depend upon myself. These are things I am learning about myself. I think I have known this about myself for many years, but I have just tried to ignore it. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Jules on Aug 26th, 2010, 4:41am Thanks Typer ! I also listen to motivational CD's, such as Brian Tracy ,as I am falling asleep - these seem to give me more confidence as time goes by. JotheNurse - I worked in the NHS for several years and know how stressful and frustrating it can be! On the dependency issue, I know exactly what you mean, and I only overcame this after my husband died, - although I am not recommending it as a strategy! The fact that I was alone and had to cope for my son's sake (he was only 10 at the time) actually made me stronger. Now when I feel the panic coming on (which is rare nowadays), I say "hang-on, you coped with THAT, and this is peanuts by comparison". Strangely, when I recently had a brief relationship with a new man, I found myself slipping back into my old dependent ways and having more anxiety! Since we agreed to part as friends I have become stronger and calmer and more in control again. So I am obviously quite barmy, but at the moment the answer is to be on my own. ..... ::) don't know if this helps?!! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 26th, 2010, 5:35am Jules its interesting to read that you can slip back into dependency, even though you have managed you life so well since losing your husband. Is it maybe an etched in role thing? Jo I too had to seems as if all was okay in my work. In the end I just could not do it. Since stopping I realize the more I needed to be okay, the worse things got if that makes sense. The pressure to be okay caused me to not be! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Jules on Aug 26th, 2010, 5:55am Hi Typer - Yes, It's probably a childhood thing, my mum died when I was 9 and my Dad brought us up, he is brilliant. I suppose I may put men in father-figure roles! On the work-thing, since I started to work for myself things are a lot easier as I only have to seem strong in short bursts, such as when visiting clients. As I work from home I can now "be myself" most of the time. I spent many years as a senior engineering manager in industry, but when I worked in the NHS I found it a lot harder on my confidence. Far from being the caring environment one expects, I found it to be very clique-ey and undermining. It is also frustrating, in that things that obviously need changing never happen because of the endless meetings and bureaucracy. Looking back I don't know how I put up with it for 4 years, never-mind 20, Jo! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by AbbyH on Aug 26th, 2010, 5:33pm Hi everyone, I have been following this thread very closley, I'm going to try and chime in and add why I think I am the way I am, and how my negative thinking has effected me most of my life. This may end up long so forgive me in advance, it is hard for me to pour my heart out in front of strangers. I have what I call a "Worst Case Scenario" thought process. I went through alot as a child. Moving around all the time because my father got into some really raw business deals, that caused people to threaten our lives more than once. He's been to jail for stealing from business partners. My one biggest memory that brings tears to my eyes when I think about it now, was sitting in his lawyers office at 8 years old while he was in court and wondering if it was going to be years before I saw my Dad again. Despite everything he put my Mom and I through I was always a very big Daddy's girl. And years later when he started having an affair (which I hid from my Mom for him) and began using drugs, I still for some reason thought the world of him. I feel extremely guilty for lying to my Mom.....It haunts me to this day. They have been divorced for years, and she still does not know I knew long before she ever found out. That has to make me the worst daughter ever. But anyways, I think that whole situation is where my negative thoughts began. There were way more events that happened that were traumatic, but I dont want to keep you all reading for hours LOL. I'm the type of person, where if my fiance is running late getting home, I automatically think he is dead in a ditch. It's out of control, I'm am COSTANTLY calculating the risks in everything I do. If I do this then (think worst possible outcome).. may happen. I hate it, but it comes so natrually since I have been doing it so long. It's a normal way of thinking for me. It is absolutley the root of my problem, and I'm trying to work on it. I just feel sometimes like my brain is too tired to change, it takes too much thought because my negative thinking is so natural. I hope I have not rambled. It feels great to talk about it. I hide all this form nearly everyone, except my family. Which I am sure the way I hide it adds to the stress. Thanks guys, Abby |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Aug 26th, 2010, 5:53pm Jules - I actually use to thrive on the fast-paced and stressful environment as a director of nursing. I don't anymore. After 20 years, I think I would like to do something different. My therapist would like me to hold off on making any decisions though until I am feeling better. One thing my therapist did say to me today which you brought up in your post was that to become free of this anxiety was a decision - not willpower, but a decision to become well. I am still trying to figure that one out. In regards to dependency and relationships, it always seems like when I have been in a relationship, (I have been divorced twice), I always become dependent. I do everything for that other person and it seems like I give and give and not get anything back. This is one reason my therapist said I have ran into the anxiety problem. Too much going out and not enough coming back in. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Aug 26th, 2010, 9:09pm Jo, If you don't mind I'd like to ask you some questions regarding your anxiety and your symptoms. I think we are all well aware of the fact that tachycardia seems to be a big worry for you. I am wondering, what does your heart rate drop to when you calm yourself down? In fact, I'd like to extend that question to everyone because (and I know what I'm doing here, RLR :)) I seem to have noticed that everyone here complains of other symptoms of anxiety but no one ever comes on saying they have a constant elevated heart rate as I do. Very mild tachycadia to 'almost' tachycardia has been the symptom that I've most worried about for the obvious reason that I can't seem to shake the belief that it is weakening my heart and doing long term damage. I know you [RLR] have said before that we all try to look for individual symptoms within ourselves that no one else seems to have as a way of justifying the anxiety, and I am aware of the fact that my symptoms are 'normal' under my clinical circumstances, but I haven't seen anyone else here talk about their heart rates as I have done and I seem to have noticed that everybody here is able to get there heart rate down to 'average' rates of about 60-80. I know... I know! I'm so vigilent that I remember everything heart related that I'm exposed to. It would seem obvious that if one is suffering from chronic anxiety that the heart rate would respond accordingly by increasing, but how is it that I am apparently never able to reduce MY heart rate, while everyone else is able to relax, at least enough to get their heart rate down to average (and I say average instead of 'normal' here because technically speaking mine is still within normal limits). Could it be that I am suffering worse than the others? Jo, you seem to have terrible anxiety and I would have rated you as more severe than myself, yet even you are able to reduce your heart rate when you calm down. I'm writing this because my anxiety seems to be increasing at the moment, it's probably temporary as it never remains constnat. Dr. Rane, I have a question for you now: could this apparent and recent increase in anxiety be because of this thread? I mean that in the most positive way possible, getting worse before I get better. Perhaps it is because I seem to be making more discoveries about myself, my past and my own problems, revealing things that I may not have wanted to think on or bring to the surface. I seem to be extremely tense recently, my chest pains are worsening and my tension is increasing. I'm getting headaches, too, which I think is more tension around the head and neck area. I don't fully understand my tension. One moment I will actively choose to loosen up, then even as little as 30 seconds later I will realise that I am completely tensed up again! Why does anxiety cause physical tension like this? Thanks for reading :) George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 27th, 2010, 1:19am Hi George, I'm looking forward to RLR's response to you. Personally I think this thread is temporarily causing your increase in symptoms. Well the thread is not actually causing anything of course, but your thoughts / response / behaviour to it is. You / we, are actually in control of how we react to things, you could just as easily look at this thread with excitement, it could calm you down because you could think that you will finally be cured when you get to the final outcome, or you could be frightened of it bringing something in to the open, or be worried that it will not help you afterall - then what? I think you are a lot like me, we look at things analytically, scientifically, and this whole palp / anxiety thing sometimes just doesnt seem logical sense to us, plus with our mindset we want to get through these exercises RLR is giving us and get to the final crunch ASAP to get on with life. But in this case I don't think that our way of thinking is going to help us at all, we are going to have to open up and take this one slowly, whether we like it or not. I think most of us are actually quite apprehensive on this journey - possibly fear of the unknown? I wonder what is our true ultimate fears here, the things that are keeping all this going? Is it really fear of a heart related issue, or do most of us actually fear losing control of who we are ie our minds? I guess most of us don't feel too in control at the moment do we, so is the ultimate fear losing that last bit of control we seem to be grasping so tightly too? Are we worried if we let go we will break mentally, ie have a mental breakdown??? I sure feel it's difficult to let go sometimes. I guess the polar opposite to me right now would be a buddhist monk or someone who practices meditation to clear their minds - RLR would you expect those types of people to have our types of problems? RLR are we doing fine here or are we going off in the wrong direction? What is becoming VERY apaprent is that these palpitations, and other symptoms are just that - symptoms. They are a pain in the A*SE for sure, but they are just the symptoms and NOT the cause. It's like having a car and finding that 1 tyre keeps wearing all the time, you can keep changing the tyre (the symptom), but ultimately there is something else that needs to be fixed (the cause) on the car to get rid of the problem once and for all. Jason |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by cazza on Aug 27th, 2010, 2:13am george my anxiety is mainly about my tachyardia now i know mine has something to do with my stomach i am always bloated burping and gurgling it makes me feel like i cant breathe my pulse is nearly always over 100 just walking sometimes can get it up to 160 it really really affects my life big time i have had a 24 hour tape and echo and they are not bothered too much because although it is fast it is sinus rythum i have had an edoscopy they think it is probably ibs i have had this stomach problem for a year now and now i think anxiety and panic are setting in because of it just to say i know how you feel about the fast heart rate its no fun! once when i kept my heart monitor on and was relaxing in the evening it showed a heart rate of 60 that was good :) carol x |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Jules on Aug 27th, 2010, 3:22am Abby - You were a little girl ! You were given a terrible and frightening problem to deal with at 8 years old. You were terrified and you did the best you could. Maybe now you would do something different, but that's only because you are now a grown-up. Look back at that little girl all those years ago, doing the best she could. You would want to protect her, not tell her off! Give that little girl a hug every day and tell her she did her best and it's NOT her fault! I understand some of how you feel. My mum committed suicide when I was 9, and my little sister and I were not allowed to talk about her. I too am a Daddy's girl, and I covered for some of the stuff he did. Now I am 48, I would handle things a lot differently, but I don't beat myself up for doing my best when I was little, and neither should you! I know what you mean about panicking - my son is 15 and I go into absolute meltdown if he is late coming in. Especially since my husband died (he would have been the voice of reason!). But I am working on it (and so is my son)! Let's try and remember we are still only doing the best we can, with the knowledge and experience we have. Each day we will get a little better, as long as we stay positive! Sending you and "little you" a big hug! xxx |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Jules on Aug 27th, 2010, 3:49am Jo - exactly ! It's taken me years to work out that I don't have to do everything for everyone all the time - and that it can actually be seen as "being a martyr" rather than being kind and helpful. Why do we do it? In my case, probably because after my mum died I was the eldest, and looked after everyone. I got love and appreciation by being helpful and capable. So I suppose it's a pattern laid down early on - being a "rescuer". As for the decision to become well - it sounds like you are nearly ready to make that decision. Sometimes we have to touch the bottom before we can start swimming up again. It was certainly true for me. One day I just thought "am I going to waste the rest of my life feeling like this?" Now when I wake up feeling like I simply can't face it, I force myself to just make a coffee and do something, whether it's a walk, some housework, some washing - anything except go back to bed. I say to myself "I'll just do this one thing and then I will go back to bed". Of course, I never do go back to bed, it's just a trick I play on myself, but it settles the anxiety and gets me feeling better. I found that if I waited till I was feeling better to do something, it just never happened. So now I do something first, and then I feel better, and then I do more automatically. When I forced myself to leave the NHS it was scary and there were a million sensible reasons to stay. But I know if I had waited till I felt better I would still be there, waiting to feel better. I planned what I would do instead, and spent a year setting it up. But the minute I made the decision and started planning, I began to feel better. You don't have to hand your notice in tomorrow! Just start to investigate what you COULD do instead, and set yourself some goals. Plan your eventual escape! I bet you it will help, a lot! :) Jules |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Aug 27th, 2010, 4:36am George - my heart has been up in the 160's when I've gotten panicky. I have learned, though it has taken a long time and may not always work, to calm myself to bring it back down when it starts to pound and go fast. I also take Ativan daily, which does help some, but it does not prevent the fast pulse rate. Distraction and telling myself that it is just anxiety helps the most. When I am calm, it can be in the 70's, though it usually will be in the 80's when I can relax. I still haven't heard about my 24 hour haltar monitor results and this has been increasing my anxiety level. Jules - I think being a nurse I have the "wanting to rescue" and "take care" of people. Unfortunately, when it comes to relationships, I have made some poor choices. So far as making the "decision" to move on from this anxiety, I am still trying to figure out how to do that. Anybody have any ideas on that? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 27th, 2010, 5:50am Abby from what you say, you were brought up living on the edge so to speak. I wanted to address the idea whether a thread like this may exacerbate anxiety. I can only tell you this from my 16 years experience as a therapist. People did not always want to talk about themselves in the way we are beginning to here...well not at first. It was important that I never pushed it and that a person not only chose when to talk about things, but also that they would bring forth things that they instinctively knew to be the seeds for how they handled life later on. Many people would make sure to tell me that they did not understand why they were anxious, frightened, depressed or whatever, because nothing traumatic or abusive had happened in their childhood. Its as though people do feel that something dreadful had to have happened. Its not always the case. However, almost always we did uncover some things that were relevant which could have been something as simple as a bit of sibling rivalry. But...uncovering these things are not the cure as was once thought in the old school psychoanalysis, where it was thought just by uncovering and expressing repressed memories and feelings would be cathartic and therefore healing. What one would be reviewing is more how or why life is as it is for a person right now. One time, part of my work involved working with victims of domestic violence after they had left the refuge. Many of the women I saw (was all women then) were bound to repeat what had happened with other men. Some were already back in potentially abusive relationships. The women who did not go back into abusive relations; those that probably never would had worked hard in therapy. But not just to uncover where they had come from to be attracted to such relations, but also who they had become and who they wanted to be. Really I have taken the long road around here. But I did mention before the person who was hit by bad anxiety and it turned out that she was angry with a friend \and once she expressed it the anx just went. She did have to understand where she had come from, only to understand why she could not express anger (non violently), especially where it was due. We can only look to ourselves. For me, I feel I would like to be less tense, remove people from my life who cause me stress, and also be more authentic and true to myself. Often just being true to oneself can release anxiety or stress. So yes, a thread like this can cause someone to review themselves and its scary, because truth is truth and once we learn something, we cant unlearn it. If we find a personal truth we did not want to see before, then it might mean change. Change is frightening, even if its for the good. I would ask any of you, me included. If I could change some things in my/your life, what would they be? On the tachy topic...I get it for seconds (up to 30 secs) and its pretty horrible. As its been happening along side these palps, am sure it is anxiety, especially if calming oneself makes it stop. My heart also goes really slowly as well. My other symptoms alongside palps are dizziness, eye twitches, insomnia and bouts of IBS |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by ckgage on Aug 27th, 2010, 8:26am Don't have much time to chime in right now, but I really wanted to say that you are an amazing group of people and I am honored to be on this journey with all of you. It is hard to read about everyone's life experiences and the many challenges some have faced, and how that is now taking its toll on us physically. I have to believe that this kind of reflection and dawning self-awareness will lead to good outcomes for all of us. Have a wonderful day! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 28th, 2010, 5:53am ck hope you do chime in. The more the merrier |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 30th, 2010, 11:43pm Well Typer, if I could change one thing in my life at the moment it would be my job. I have a VERY easy job, with many hours of boring, doing nothing time each day (great when you want to mull over all your problems for hours ! :( , and it doesnt challenge me at all. I'm sure this job is REALLY adding to my feelings of not going anywhere in my life, time running out etc I've been there 18 years, but there are not many other jobs in this area. I also have my own business http://www.onlineartdemos.co.uk/ but I am not making enough money from it at the moment to leave my other job :'( |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Jules on Aug 31st, 2010, 2:28am Good grief, Jason - just visited your website! Anyone with a talent like yours should not be in a boring job. You should have your own gallery and be running art classes for mere mortals like me who can only draw straight lines! Have you tried marketing your work differently, or getting an agent or something? x |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by ckgage on Aug 31st, 2010, 6:46am Wow, I second what Jules said, Jason! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Aug 31st, 2010, 1:21pm I third it. Jason, you paint wild life. Do you paint anything else? I have to say your art is fantastic. I know artists have as hard a time as musicians - its so competitive. Seems though you offer something quite unique. I met someone who plodded along as an artist but has been commission now to create art/covers for publishers and writers and she makes a good living from it now |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Aug 31st, 2010, 11:46pm Sorry if I have made this thread go off track, but that is the one thing I would change. I have heard quite a few times that I shouldn't be stuck in a boring dead end job if I can paint like I do, but that just makes things worse, as it makes me feel even more stuck to be honest (if you know what I mean). It's like everyone is telling me "what the hell are you doing in that job! your an artist" then I am thinking "I need to get out of this job! I want / should be able to make a living out of this" but I only seem to get 1/2 way to earning enough money to leave the factory. I'm sure the internet and teaching via it is the way to secure my income through art, selling my pictures would then be the icing on the cake, so to speak. Perhaps I need a webmaster to sort out the site etc don't know, and they cost a LOT. Hi Typer, Yes I paint anything, but wildlife is my love. Anyway, enough about me ;) , lets try to get this thread back on target, it seems like the last week I havent made any more progress on my journey. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Sep 1st, 2010, 2:52am I think what you are saying though, is very relevant. I mean dissatisfaction in a job and the boredom must add to how you feel generally. What I meant before, about everything not having to be connected to past trauma is that...our past may pave the way for what we do and how we handle the now...but it is the now we must deal with. It happens that some situations are not so easy to change. For example your job. It would be fine if someone would keep you while you set up something else. But, when you have a family and commitments - well then it can seem unreachable and we can slump back into a kind of depressing acceptance. But, nothing is impossible, hard yes, but not impossible. Perhaps rather than jump into ideas quickly, you could discuss options with someone - see what ideas spring to mind.Perhaps you need to widen your horizons rather than make them higher. Maybe join a forum/community of artists...get some ideas from them. See what other people are doing. Where is there a nitch in the market. Seek out work for example from publishers as a free lance illustrator, or advertising companies etc. It may seem off thread - but to me we are all trying to find how to feel okay in our lives and turning those things over with each other. It will be individual |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Sep 1st, 2010, 12:40pm Typer, your VERY wise :) I'm lucky to have you as a friend here on the forum ;) Jason |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Sep 1st, 2010, 5:07pm I think we are a really helpful bunch of people. This thread seems to have slowed down. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Sep 1st, 2010, 11:41pm Your right Typer, regarding the thread slowing, I think most of us have come to a stalemate now, not sure what we should be doing to progress, so peoples attention is now going back to their symptoms, and you can see quite an increase in that type of post again on the forum. Seems we came quite a way, but are now slipping back in to old habits again which is the curse of our lives. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Stav98 on Sep 2nd, 2010, 12:34am 252E3C2021224F0 wrote:
Meh! A blog/album site on a content management system....SIMPLES! I work in IT but am not technical in any way. Took me about a day to work out a simple Blog site (well two in fact). With a pointer on where to start I think anybody can do it! :P |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Sep 2nd, 2010, 4:06am Great idea Stav. In fact when you blog. you can join a blogging community plus get the blog up on face book. I was thinking about this thread last night. I guess what RLR was indicating is that the reason he cant give us a magic cure is because there is no magic cure. I think when he said the cure is inside us, and he may correct me if I have this wrong, but I think he wanted us to help each other explore our own, individual reasons for what brought the palps about. I think we all agree that fundamentally, the reason they began and indeed continue is due stress and/or anxiety. This has caused our nervous systems to go into a sort of overdrive. Plus if we continue to stress, or continue doing and thinking the same things, if we continue to stay in the place that caused us to get these palps, then they continue. Some situations are not so easily solved. For example I need to get this house finished and sell it...but lurking beneath that are some other unresolved issues. Not so much with other people or situations, more how I deal with those. For all my years of searching and insight, I am aware that my journey is ongoing and there are things I need to change about me. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Sep 2nd, 2010, 4:17am I still wonder, however, why we have gotten to this stage but the majority of people never do. Most of us can list our stressors and things that cause us anxiety quite easily and quickly and I think most of us jumped in pretty quickly in this thread and actually did list them, pretty sure I did. But RLR wanted us to look beyound cause and effect, and said to me back then that I wasn't even at a place where I could actually see the real causes, I don't feel I have moved much beyound that point. So I wonder if we are not really there yet, as you said you have been searching for years for insight, so will any more years of searching in the same way make you see anything differently? Not trying to be negative, just progress ;) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Sep 2nd, 2010, 4:22am Yes I think it will. because the up side of these physical symptoms (which is a hard concept to contemplate) is that it has caused me to not plod on aimlessly. It has allowed me to review where I am and look at where I want to be. For me its about the changes I knew I should make but never did. Not sure if that makes any sense |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Sep 2nd, 2010, 4:34am Hi Typer, Yes it makes sense, it's pushing / forcing you to be proactive and do what you know needs to be done. ;) With that comes the realization, as we have stated many times, that we are obviously causing these palps and other symptoms by keeping our bodies / minds on a state of moderate to high alert, due to the unresolved conflict within each of us. When we feel that we have more direction in our lives then things should subside and go back to alert off on the switch, so to speak. So when RLR used the analogy of OZ was he merely (but importantly)pointing out to us that those characters had lost direction in their lives, due to the things they thought they lacked and that in our own ways each of us had also lost our own way and direction in our lives too, and that we needed to find our true directions. And also how the Tin man for instance fixated on the fact that he needed a heart to feel complete, but he just needed to realize that it was already there and not fixate on the symptom (no heart beat), which was distracting him from living his life normally and to the full??? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Sep 2nd, 2010, 2:52pm Okay, excellent interpretations being made here and this is precisely the kind of logic and analytical thinking all of you need to utilize, for it will carry you to the place you need to be in order to realize where you have taken the fork in the road to your present status. You've now begun to leave the irrational planes associated with physical causes for your difficulties and headed toward the introspective realm where at some point, you'll be able to identify, evaluate and alter the underlying cause for the problems which have ultimately led you to an altered life. Excellent. Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Jules on Sep 3rd, 2010, 3:04am I agree with RLR it is important to recognise the palps are coming from psychological rather than physical causes. Also, I think Typer's comments earlier rang very true for me. In that it is more important to focus on where we are Now, and where we are headed, rather than how we got here. We got here by not paying attention to where we were going, and if we carry on not paying attention, we will end up somewhere else we don't want to be! The answer for me was to set goals and do something every day, however small, towards acheiving them. Any thoughts anyone? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Sep 3rd, 2010, 4:12am Oh.... i've always got thoughts Jules. That just might never be right ha.... :D I think your right though - it's important, no , essential, to have some sort of goals to give direction to life, they dont have to be massive like earning a million, but they have to be there all the same, something to get up for in the morning, something that brightens your day. I also think you need to have passion in something, whether that is a hobby, family or whatever. I'm sure you can expend on your thoughts Jules, I'd love to hear more, plus examples if possible ;) I think after the downturn of posts on this thread we have started to get it to move along again and it appears in the right direction :) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Sep 3rd, 2010, 5:03am Jules I agree, goals are important and each of us will have some that are more meaningful than others. I do have hobbies (I write short stories and make cards and jewellery) but these will not resolve the life issues I have to deal with. In a way they encourage me to procrastinate. Here I am, I have my mindfulness medication tapes, my dancing tapes and a host of "get me well" paraphernalia and what do I do, I waste time on the computer or doing things that bring nothing but more stress. Jason, we could do with sharing or maybe swapping some of our traits, I need some more get up and go, maybe you need some more of my problem where I tend to sit down and wait. LOL I have been reading this wonderful book, recommended by the cardiology registrar. A Search in Secret India. I had supposed he recommended it re my interest in meditation and our chat about yogi's and healing etc. Well I began it, and fell into it right away. Its so beautifully written. At first I thought it was just this one man's search for true Yogi's as well as seeking out frauds and so on. The man was a journalist and a skeptic. But what he found offers so much hope. The write up's on Amazon say it all. It was written in 1934. Anway (she takes a breath) I have reached the part that is to teach me how to heal my body and keep it as healthy as possible. It is so fascinating and I shall really MAKE myself begin the practice of mediation on a regular basis. Here is a link for anyone interested in this method, whilst I do realize its not everyone's idea for healing http://www.amazon.co.uk/Search-Secret-India-Paul-Brunton/dp/1844130436 |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by ckgage on Sep 4th, 2010, 8:53pm Thanks for mentioning that book, Typer. I will have to check it out. I tend to want to rush to the doctor when anything is a little off to get my peace of mind from him, but I am wanting to be able to find peace of mind from within. Needing to see the doctor for reassurance seems to feed a cycle of anxiety for me. Figuring out how to deal with it on my own stops the cycle. Easier on the wallet, too. :) I'm now trying to set little goals for myself in this way. If I feel some new sensation or odd thing, instead of making an appt right away, I will tell myself to give it a week, and if it is still bothering me in a week, I could call. It helps me to calm down, be more observant, and see if there really is a problem or if I am just being sensitive to every odd feeling or sensation I feel in a day. thanks again for the book recommendation. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Sep 6th, 2010, 12:46am Just thinking out loud again....as usual ;) Some of us have mentioned looking forwards, creating goals to basically give our lives a more positive direction, but isn't the direction of introspection in which RLR is guiding us actually just looking backwards to the causes of our anxieties ie where the fork in the road was for us as RLR mentions above? So should we be looking both forwards and backwards at the same time? get what I mean? Do we need to find out the reasons why and clear that up, before we can direct ourselves forwards? Interested in hearing everyones thoughts Jason |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Sep 6th, 2010, 1:12am A few of us have mentioned that we are starting or about to start some form of meditation, Yoga or mental relaxation / mindfulness. These things have been going for thousands of years as you know and now also appear to be backed up fully by modern technology, brain scans etc RLR if you have time could you give me your opinion on them please and if you think they would be usefull to us. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Jules on Sep 6th, 2010, 2:20am I believe that too much looking backwards and/or forwards is the root cause of our anxiety. Sure, we have to learn from past mistakes and experiences, and we have to plan and set goals. But once we have done that, we have to live in the Now. The best book I ever read on this subject is The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. The 1st time I read it, I didn't get it. However, after the 3rd or 4th time it started to make sense, and now I read it at some point during every week, and I brainwash myself with the audio book. The 2nd best book on the subject is How to Stop Worrying and Start Living by Dale Carnegie. A much easier book, following the same principles. Once you really "get it", (i.e. that the past and future do not exist, only in your mind), life really does get easier, and even exciting! Honest, I kid you not! Jules x |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Sep 6th, 2010, 11:00am I think it is ok to take a little look at your history, but a lot of times there is not just one thing that made a person nervous or get a panic disorder. A lot of times, as in my case, it is an accumulation of stress over possibly the last couple of years. When I had my panic disorder right after high school 35 years ago, I'm not totally sure what happened to bring that on, except that my boyfriend back then had broken up and I was so upset that I started not to go out and do things and hung around home a lot. I think that's what started that one. I think, as I have said in other posts, that I have a dependent personality, and now with my Mother's recent passing away and my father who passed away in 2001, I can really feel this. I have a wonderful son that I have been blessed with (he is 26), but he has his own life to enjoy, though he only lives a few blocks away. I need to learn how to reassure myself through the tachycardia/panicky feelings and to rely and trust myself. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Sep 6th, 2010, 12:49pm I feel like that too. We can look back if we thought it was part of the process. I agree though, worrying too much about either can cause more stress. One can get too stressed by trying not to be stressed :) My thinking is about working on the here and now. How can I deal with stress? What is wrong in my life? Can I change the things that are wrong? etc. Plus learning to relax. Not that I am being very successful right now. I am so stressed and in a situation whereby there is no way out right now. I am literally trapped in a stressful situ. All I can hope for is that learn to relax somehow. I have been doing so well, with only mild palps until this week. I have had the knock you over kind today. On top of that I fell while crossing the road. tripped over a pot hole and hurt my knees...that really helped >:( |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Sep 7th, 2010, 12:40am I kind of agree with you all, although I haven't had much experience at all in this type of thing. But isn't RLR directing us in the direction of introspection and finding out why each of us are like we are and why we are allowing it to be so??? Or am I missing something here? Perhaps it's about what we feel we are missing / lacking in our lives / self, in the here and now, rather than what we were missing / lacking back when our anxieties etc started? Anyone have any thoughts??? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Sep 7th, 2010, 4:12am 4F514F1D0 wrote:
From RLR's above post I would say yes Jason, introspection is the key as well. But what is everyone's understanding of that. this is what it has come to mean to me: Many years ago, a friend of mine married and moved to the US with her American husband. It turned out that her husband was an alcoholic, so she came back to England with there baby girl. He followed some months later. He was in fact a lovely person, but when he drank, he was nasty and even violent at times. They had no home and were staying with relatives and so the housing people rehoused them at the top of a tower block. My friend became completely obsessed that they would be trapped up there in a fire. She could not sleep and I remember her talking about her heart doing strange things and it was so bad, she would hang on to the wall in the street for fear of dropping (funny how we forget that we have heard of this before). She was prescribed diazepam and took it for a few years but still was worried about the block catching fire. Eventually they were able to buy a house and she felt better, withdrew from the diazepam. Now she had a new obsession and feared something bad would happen to her kids. Again she was so scared she could not sleep and felt dizzy all the time. Without writing a book, she would take diazepam for a while, come off it but each time her fears would skip from one thing to another. Then one day, someone helped her to discover the REAL reason for her fears...someone helped her admit that she was deeply unhappy with her man. He was drinking, hiding bottles and had become impotent. She had felt she had managed all of this well, and that the obsessions were the problem for her anxiety. Once she admitted this to herself, the anxiety went. Just like the other lady I told you about. My friend would say she is always a little nervy but these obsessions disappeared over night. She divorced the guy and after all the hustle was over, she was the happiest I'd seen her in years. No more anxiety. What I mean is, by introspection we may find personal truths. That is, we may find that there are things we need to change and things that as yet have gone unsaid, or unthought - perhaps because they are too big or too overwhelming to tackle. I am not proposing everyone has something hidden like my friend. But who knows if the inability to leave a job, change careers, leave a spouse or at least acknowledge the problems, recognise one's unhappiness somewhere, or just generally change the way we do things, is not the key? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Sep 7th, 2010, 4:35am Ah, I see, so introspection does not necessarily mean looking back to try to find the point of increased anx which started things off? I guess those exact things might have even been changed or gone by now anyway. So introspection just means looking within? But how will we know when we have found the cause? and how do we know it is the cause? Everyone knows how unhappy I am in my boring job, but is that the cause? It's not going to be helping, but how do I know it's not something else? etc I am terrible for always looking for definitive proof and answers! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Sep 7th, 2010, 7:54am Yes, introspection means looking within, or inward. How will you know? I guess only you can answer that when you do know. Sometimes just changing something makes a difference and we never know. Its so individual but I can tell you, all my stress is being focused on the house, the mess etc. But deep down I know its not just that; its a lot more and very personal. Perhaps it is a combination for many of us, that's why its hard to identify something. Perhaps its the feeling that you have to stay in the boring job, perhaps its losing your mother and that, perhaps its deeper. For example what if you have no belief in yourself, or not enough to say RIGHT, I am going to work toward getting out of this job and feeling positive and sure you will. What if you are unable to have belief in yourself because of X, Y and Z. Of course it could be all or none of those. But you know, most of us are in denial, even me and my years of having and being a therapist. I am still turning corners; still having insights. I guess I always will |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Sep 7th, 2010, 8:13am Thanks for the rely Typer - VERY informative - thank you ;) But tell me....... what would it take for you to really start enjoying everyday again? To live the rest of your life as the BEST of your life??? What would you be doing differently right now if you didn't have any restrictions, was 100% positive and went for what you truly wanted??? So.... why wait till tomorrow to start some of those things, you could start something very small but in the right direction today I bet. (you dont have to answer any of that of course as it's private - but you get where I am coming from ;) ) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by ckgage on Sep 7th, 2010, 6:49pm I think that introspection is very important. Knowing the root of the anxiety might be helpful, but I don't know if we will all be able to pinpoint it. If we are able to pinpoint anything, though, or even if we can't, I think that part of conquering anxiety has to do with acceptance. I think this acceptance could take on many different forms and could be different for different people. It could be that people need to accept themselves for who they are, or accept that they struggle with anxiety before they can move forward. It could be that someone might need to accept facts rather than fear when examining physical symptoms and what they mean. For me, I have to come to acceptance of my own mortality and that there are things that are beyond my control. I get that intellectually, but when I lose sight of it emotionally, that is when I get anxious. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jazzmynn on Sep 9th, 2010, 10:53pm I haven't been in here for awhile to post, but it sounds like everyone is getting or on the right track. CKgage, you remind me of myself in that sometimes I need reassurance from my dr. I am better about it, but that is one of the issues I am working on. I believe that the main problem with getting better is that many of us lack self-esteem or the ability to embrace ourselves as we are. If we believed in ourselves more, then would we be seeking out answers for heart ailments that don't exist? I guess accepting the palpitations for what they truly are and working on personal issues might be the key. Somewhere in each of us exists a need to fear and think the worst about ourselves. Ironically even with the palpitations we are still here to tell about them. There are people who would trade far worse ailments with us. I am seeking answers like you are, and you all raise some good points! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Sep 11th, 2010, 4:46am Okay, things are progressing to some extent. I would just make the comment here that "acceptance" is really resignation to one's problems, whether past or present. The critical point is whether accepting one's circumstances equates with overcoming them or merely living with them. Introspection is not simply about looking within, but using that ability to re-take control over your life in areas where things seem to have gone astray. You need to learn to effectively identify and confront suppressed issues to determine how you now perceive them by contrast to any point in history, whether recent or remote. Understand that the control or influence these irrational perceptions have is directly related to your estimation of the ability to effectively overcome and deal with them in a confident manner. You can think of anxiety disorder as the constant reminder of circumstances unresolved that more importantly constitute the incorporation of irrational perceptions about both the issue itself and your relative abilities to resolve it. The key element is using the sort of objectivity beginning to awaken and arise in the postings on this thread topic. In other words, if you approach these issues in the mindset of the person you've become as a consequence of their influence, then you become hopelessly repelled and wish to merely continue employing avoidance behavior as means to deal with it. Understand that avoidance doesn't necessarily represent an overt context, but can equally and more often constitute a more passive denial that something is awry. Realize that chronic anxiety is not so much the consequence of the origin itself, but rather the mounting changes in lifestyle and personal constitution that the origin has ultimately produced. In other words, the more your life proceeds from the point of origin, the more influence you begin to permit take place and the more acceptance by relegation you encounter. Persons so affected will typically state that they've either always approached life in this manner or can sometimes identify a life-altering event which culminated into the contemporary lifestyle they now experience. Either way, the origin is the same. You have to be able to identify your weaknesses in establishing self-change. The weakness can either constitute the use of inappropriate or inffective means or the actual absence of a strategy to alter its course and remove it as an influence in your life. It might surprise you to learn that the actual successful and appropriate measure exists within you, for it is often observed being suggested in the case of others who appear to be experiencing similar difficulty. Some folks might even comment to the extent "Well, it's sort of odd, but I know better how to recognize it in someone else and offer insight than I can in my own instance." So the question for the day is how can someone be attuned to, and recognize in others, similar patterns and be able to offer reasonable and logical insight while at the same time be prevented from directing this same ability toward themselves? Let's continue. Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Sep 12th, 2010, 5:16am Hi RLR, I wonder why when we have come to the individual realization of what is causing the problems, ie job for instance etc why do we then find it so hard to become proactive and forge forwards and do something about it??? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Sep 12th, 2010, 8:29am I think it is always easier to look at others and recognize their issues and come up with possible solutions for them than it is to look at our own issues. When we look at other people's situations, we don't usually have the emotional part that goes with it, so we can look at it more rationally. In answer to Jason's question, even when you feel you may know what needs to be done to conquer this anxiety, sometimes the status quo is easier to do then to do something different. Change is hard for people, and can cause anxiety. Since my mother has passed away, I have noticed that the issue I have with dependency is very apparent. I recognized this before, but see it even more so now. I have a boyfriend, who my counselor and I both agree, is not very healthy for me. He lived with me for 4 years, and because of his financial circumstances, did not contribute financially. He also is very negative and very depressed. So, I did eventually have him move out last November, but we have remained friends and he is over to see me pretty much every day. Of course, last November is when my tachycardia started. Then my Mom broke her arm and began to have her health issues. Even though my counselor says that these added to the stress, my anxiety is an accumulation of stress over a couple of years. Always giving to other people but not taking care of myself. I know I probably should not see this friend of mine so often, but I know I do to some extent because I do not like being by myself. So, this is one area I need to work on. Learn to be independent and trust myself. I have a big house to take care of. I use to love it, now I am scared that it is too much to handle. I have a wonderful son who lives only a couple of miles away who does help with things, but I need to learn to just depend upon myself. With my 24r heart monitor coming back as sinus tachycardia (yes, even when it was going 167 bpm), I need to trust that and start my cardio exercising again. I think I am afraid I will have situations come up that I can not handle on my own - my anxiety, my unreal feelings from the anxiety, the tachycardia. I know though that I have dealt with these for many months. I think with my Mom passing away, all these feelings of dependency and being afraid to be by myself has just become more recognizable. The funny thing about it ist, I have a wonderful, though stressful, job that pays well. I have much confidence in myself when I do my job as a Director of Nursing. I am looking at doing something else though because I have done this type of job for 20 years and it does take a toll on you because of the stress. So, I need to find something in my life to look forward to (even more so that my Mom passed away). I am so used to taking care of other people, that I find it hard to do things for myself. I want to get passionate about something and get my zest for life back. I hope I haven't taken this thread in the wrong direction. I think I do see what has caused anxiety for me - dependency issues, afraid of dying, afraid of being alone, an extremely stressful job. I need to work on building my self confidence and trust my body again. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jazzmynn on Sep 12th, 2010, 4:44pm Ok, I just got back from an overnight mini vacation with my husband and friends. I had palpitations the whole time on and off. As much as I try, I can't help getting upset that they happen. I also think it must be nice to be other people who don't seem to be troubled by them. Can anyone relate? Also, I found out my thyroid level is slightly elevated and hypothyroidism can cause palpitations. How can you get over that other than medicine? I honestly feel bad for anyone dealing with palpitations, but no one else I know ever says they have them or bother them. I just wish they would go away forever. I thought I had a good way of dealing with them, but I guess not. It's not the fear of what may happen, but the awful feeling of them that upsets me. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Sep 14th, 2010, 12:18pm Jazzyman, I can relate. I have been busy trying to sort out some of my life issues - that is very real, practical things. I can have a few days were they are so minimal that I almost feel normal again. Then back they come and they are just so uncomfortable. I do look at people who are just leading there lives, good and bad and feel I have forgotten what life is like palp free. I just hold on to hope. In fact people like Stav have given me hope. There are so many people out there with these..when I first got them and googled them, tons of forums and chat rooms had so many people talking about them. What upsets me is that some people's only last a few months and go. I just keep on trying and although i still get them, I do think if I can get my life on track, they will go |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Sep 20th, 2010, 1:32am It's a shame but it seems that this thread is dieing off. I feel that we have come a long way, but the final hurdle appears to be elusive. I have posted some of my thoughts to RLR's post below, hopefully it will generate some more discussion from everyone or guidance from RLR if he is able to give it to us at this point. [quote author=5947590B0 link=1277865767/150#162 date=1284205616]Okay, things are progressing to some extent. I would just make the comment here that "acceptance" is really resignation to one's problems, whether past or present. The critical point is whether accepting one's circumstances equates with overcoming them or merely living with them. So we need to distinguish whether by accepting it we are actually, fully accepting and getting past the issue, and feeling the relief that comes with that, or putting up with the issue and not improving the situation at all. Introspection is not simply about looking within, but using that ability to re-take control over your life in areas where things seem to have gone astray. You need to learn to effectively identify and confront suppressed issues to determine how you now perceive them by contrast to any point in history, whether recent or remote. Understand that the control or influence these irrational perceptions have is directly related to your estimation of the ability to effectively overcome and deal with them in a confident manner. So the more we feel out of control and unable to solve our problems the worse our symptoms will be as we feel more out of control You can think of anxiety disorder as the constant reminder of circumstances unresolved that more importantly constitute the incorporation of irrational perceptions about both the issue itself and your relative abilities to resolve it. So the anxiety symptoms are saying "this is not right, it's bothering me and you need to solve the issue" the symptoms are just reminding us in the only way they can, that the issues need to be resolved. The key element is using the sort of objectivity beginning to awaken and arise in the postings on this thread topic. In other words, if you approach these issues in the mindset of the person you've become as a consequence of their influence, then you become hopelessly repelled and wish to merely continue employing avoidance behavior as means to deal with it. Understand that avoidance doesn't necessarily represent an overt context, but can equally and more often constitute a more passive denial that something is awry. So, I think basically by concentrating on the benign symptoms we are masking or at the least not attending to the real underlying cause of the problem. So - as I think one of my main issued is being stuck in this darn job, because I feel somewhat helpless to move away from it and get another job / do my art, I instead pretty much subconciously mask that issue by focusing more on the anxiety / palps etc, as possible rather than to try and then fail which I might be perceiving as worse than the place in my life I am currently at. ie if I try and fail - then what do I do? Would I feel completly helpless with even worse symptoms? Realize that chronic anxiety is not so much the consequence of the origin itself, but rather the mounting changes in lifestyle and personal constitution that the origin has ultimately produced. In other words, the more your life proceeds from the point of origin, the more influence you begin to permit take place and the more acceptance by relegation you encounter. Persons so affected will typically state that they've either always approached life in this manner or can sometimes identify a life-altering event which culminated into the contemporary lifestyle they now experience. So the symptoms we now have are not really caused by the initial problem/issue, but by the way we have allowed it to grow and take over our waking lives as we concentrate on it and add fuel to it all the time Either way, the origin is the same. You have to be able to identify your weaknesses in establishing self-change. The weakness can either constitute the use of inappropriate or inffective means or the actual absence of a strategy to alter its course and remove it as an influence in your life. So I should work out a plan, a strategy/direction to move away from/solve the issue in my life to remove the symptoms? It might surprise you to learn that the actual successful and appropriate measure exists within you, for it is often observed being suggested in the case of others who appear to be experiencing similar difficulty. Some folks might even comment to the extent "Well, it's sort of odd, but I know better how to recognize it in someone else and offer insight than I can in my own instance." So the question for the day is how can someone be attuned to, and recognize in others, similar patterns and be able to offer reasonable and logical insight while at the same time be prevented from directing this same ability toward themselves? We are removed emotionally from other people, we see where they are going wrong and how they have dug themselves in to a hole that they cant see out of, being outside we see it. But why when we see the answer in our own issues do we find it so hard to progess? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Sep 26th, 2010, 2:11am Due to the stress of the ongoing works at my home, someone offered me to stay in their apartment for a few months while they are away. The idea is to remove me from the situation in the hope I may recover. I accepted and have been here a week tomorrow. This has also meant I have not been around my partners stress. Although its been a little stressful virtually living out of suitcases and not having my own things around me, it has felt better. I have had a few palps, mostly related to upper stomach wind so I cant say they have gone completely. Still feel a little dizzy at times too but, on the whole the palps have been minimal and I feel far less stressed. Then my partner brought some things of mine around. He seemed stressed and was all in a fluster and a hurry. Within minutes I got bad palps. After he left they went. Until now I think I have not realized how sponge like I am for his stress projections. I usually recognise it in others and am apt at protecting myself from them. But with someone who is related or familiar, its not so easy to separate oneself from where you end and they begin. Although I am always still fascinated and amazed by such concepts, if this were the case for me then Id be interested in other people's take on it. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Sep 28th, 2010, 5:07pm Okay, let me make several points here. Please direct your attention to the opening page for the Symptoms forum that depicts the statistics. Notice that all of the threads in general range in the lower registers for both replies and those simply viewing the threads. Now take a look at the stats for this particular thread. More than 3000 people have viewed this thread and while a small portion is attributed to members on the forum, the majority of viewings have arisen from guests. This means that all of these people are using a similar search string for information that is leading them to this particular thread. This thread has received more viewings than any other thread in the history of this forum within a similar timeframe. What is it about this thread that holds a key search term or addresses a question obviously so similar in more than 3000 people? Moreover, note that the replies are very small by comparison. So what is it that so many people seek to find that they subsequently cannot provide any commentary? Firstly, realize that to a very great extent, self-discovery produces insight that draws irrational frames of mind into more logical clarity and real-world acknowledgement. People become so accustomed to living apart from themselves that uncertainty and diminished self-concept alone cause one to be apprehensive. Their sense of purpose wanes and they often spend a greater portion of their lives performing survival techniques of daily life while they feel forced to merely window-shop for the live that they once held or originally sought. It is, in essence, self-captivity. People who develop significant anxiety live in a sort of psychological purgatory. They don't move left or right, but rather do their best to remain static to avoid changes that might further the lack of control they feel. This resignation is established upon the basis of fear. It is fear that potential errors in direction will compound into a spiraling effect that produces the climactic event that they constantly feel is looming and yet it cannot be defined or articulated. A simple real-world example of this phenomenon is observed in persons who are evaluated for anxiety and subsequently prescribed medicine that they are then unable to ingest because it poses a risk that is speculated to be as risk-laden as the reason it was prescribed. It is the constant and conscious effort to maintain stability in all things, a perception that the delicate balance can be disturbed to the extent that it sets in motion multiple unknown factors that cannot be controlled. The affected individual reasons to the effect "I'm unable to deal with the anxiety and these symptoms, but this medicine has warning labels all over it and if anything can go wrong, I'm a magnet for the worst outcome possible. I can't take the medicine because it only increases the risk that is causing all my anxiety!" Again, self-captivity. All that we do in life harbors risk. Everything. It's the very potion which generates self-confidence and ability to take on the challenges of life with a positive spirit. It's knowing that if you live but for a day, it's a day well-spent. To quote an old adage, "better a lion for a day than a sheep for one-hundred years." It is impossible to seek haven from your life as it must be lived. As stated earlier, it only brings the fear into the den with you, surrounding you in every thing you do until you take the initiative to face it squarely and realize that the true risk is avoidance itself. It is the origin of the fears and uncertainty. It is a life spent in a state of exhaustion trying to guard against and prevent all of the inevitable frailties that humans face in their lives. It is, in all certainty, the single most impossible challenge to win. Life itself is a challenge to gather up and put forth all of your very best attributes toward achieving your goals, whatever they may represent. If you allow the meaningless worries about your health or other circumstances to rule the day, then you are resigned to letting life merely unfold with your presence merely one of a spectator, helpless to alter the script or story line. Safe passage in life is paradoxically the path most challenging. It is the ability to push through one's fears rather than retreat from them that opens the door to the place all of you seek in your lives. You must gather yourselves up, make a turn in direction in spite of your fears and never look back. You must move forward, for there is no safety of the kind that exists only in your mind. Knowing that such an ultimatum exists for all, you really have only one direction to proceed. Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Sep 28th, 2010, 8:05pm Wow - what you say is so true. Especially the avoidance and the self-captivity. Kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy. I know my counselor says the only way through this is to challenge the fear and to push oneself even though it is fearful. I love reading your posts. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Sep 29th, 2010, 1:27am There needs to be a book. I am not surprised this thread has had so many views. I here you. I feel my own problems stem from stress and now depression. I need to ask about this in another thread. It is true, one cannot escape oneself. What goes on in thought and then feeling can be torturous - how we perceive what happens outside and what we do with what happens is what decides if it is stressful or not. But there are givens in this world that one cannot avoid. Givens that interfere with recovery. My palpitations are back with an awful vengeance. I have not felt anxious, but am extremely depressed. Having palps compounds that depression. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jazzmynn on Sep 29th, 2010, 10:26pm RLR, What you are saying is very true. Oh sure, 3000 persons can investigate this link, but of those how many will try to push forward? I wonder if you are familiar with Claire Weekes book, "Hope and Help for Your Nerves"? I truly think her concepts are logical. The idea of not dwelling on anxiety, but to face, acknowledge and float through it sound like they could work. I am still confused on how exactly to deal with the anxiety and palps when they unexpectedly occur. I am working with a therapist to lessen my anxiety. How sad more people don't want to become involved with this thread. Jazzmynn |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Sep 30th, 2010, 12:55am Jazzyman, if you have ever been to a workshop you will find some people ask questions or add to the ideas and some people remain silent. I think that often reflects life in that, some people do the work, many benefit from it. I guess that is why people write books to share their knowledge with others. I was thinking RLR has enough info on this site for a small book by him. That means something would be out there long after we have all gone, just like clair weeks. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Oct 12th, 2010, 6:25pm Wanted to bring this thread back to life again. I myself am not afraid to look at myself and see what I am doing to make this anxiety stay. It is truly a self-fulfilling type prophecy. As my therapist says, the only way to get over this is to push through your fears, experience the anxiety, but keep pushing through it and to not avoid what you fear. For me that is exercise (because of the rapid heart beat), being alone, traveling. The fear is the tachycardia, the potential panic attack, the feelings of unreality. All things that I have been told by many that it is not dangerous, not harmful, all due to anxiety/stress. The avoidance of doing things in the fear of these anxieties just keeps one in the cycle of anxiety. As my therapist states, you have to believe that you will be well, and that you can work through these anxieties and feel good and healthy again. You have to stop catastrophising every thing and every symptom. Yes, they are uncomfortable, but not harmful and they will subside. One needs to believe in themselves again and trust themselves. You have to reassure yourself in your fears and trust yourself that you can handle these anxieties. Don't look at how difficult things can be, but what you are doing. Not at how hard it was to do it, but that you did do it. Look at the positive things that you have accomplish. These are some things that I am working on. I do get frustrated that I still feel the anxiety and panic and feelings of unreality. But I need to know that things take time, be patient, continue to push myself, and these feelings will go away. I need to remind myself that I went through this 30 years ago, and even though I had some anxious moments, these feelings did go away. I did feel strong and confident in myself. I was physically and emotionally strong. I need to believe that I can be that way again. My therapist and my doctor believes that I am doing much better and I am ok and I will be fine. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Oct 26th, 2010, 2:18am Very interesting replies. I think it all boils down to the fact that most, if not all of us experiencing the palps and other anxiety issues have basically lost our way in life, we feel like we have lost control, that our life is like a leaf blowing in the wind - we are being taken along for the ride and not in control at all. The palpitations etc. are just the symptom of the above, our body and minds way of saying that things are wrong with our lives, it's tipping us off of the fact that things needs to change. I believe that the longer we stay in the anxious state the longer it takes to get back to a low base level. Here are some things I have been implementing that has helped - I think most of us, if we look at ourselves logically, would see that we are in an anxiety habit, when things go wrong or symptoms increase we immediately grab for our security blankets - whether they be coming to this forum, reading anxiety self-help books or videos, searching the net for yet MORE answers etc. etc. etc. You probably know what I mean and could add to that list. Now I knew about that habit ages ago, but found in moments when I felt down, perhaps after a bad bout of palps or a sleepless night, I would automatically start the anxiety habit cycle, and it NEVER made me feel better, but instead dragged me down as I was reaffirming that I was anxious, had palps etc. So I put in place a day diary, and in this I basically just write a quick note of what I am doing every hr or so, it sounds simplistic and probably stupid, but it makes it VERY easy to see if I have started to drift in to spending hrs searching the net, or even chatting on this forum too much etc. and I can easily put a stop to it by getting busy with something else. I also use it to fill out short term goals for the day like, updating my website, doing some exercise etc. and create some forward facing goals. I have also found that looking forwards as much as possible also helps a lot, deliberately directing ones attention AWAY from palps / symptoms and getting on with life, living life in the here and now not in the past, basically keeping it all present, doing things in the now gives the feeling of more control and also direction in life. It gives me the feeling that things are moving along in the right direction. Rumination, I believe is the thing that takes us in to the downwards spiral, it's what separates people that have a palpitation and just brush it aside and get on with life and people who have that same palpitation experience and ruminate and worry about it, perpetuating even more of them. My diary and forwards looking is helping me to reduce my rumination, helping me to create more good habits which will hopefully continue to diminish my bad habits and eventually remove them. Hopefully my thoughts will be of use to someone ;) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Oct 27th, 2010, 6:27pm I love the idea of the diary and may try that Jason. The meditation has helped me so much. Some days I have NO palps. But as there is still stress, I am working on changing my view of stress as I do also still get days of many palps |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jason on Oct 28th, 2010, 2:50am Hi Typer, Could you go in to more detail regarding your meditation practice please, I'm very interested :) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Nov 1st, 2010, 6:07pm I will when I get some time. Briefly, its just quiet and concentrating on breathing alone. Of course thoughts invade but if I get back to thinking about my breath its soothing. Every 1/2 hour I take at least 3 deeper breaths in and out of the nose. realize I hold my breath a lot or breath shallower and even faster. This exercise reminds me (anyone) to breath properly which really seems to have helped. Not even sure why. I wonder if RLR would have an explanation. By the way, I agree with him and have returned home, determined to work on my stress levels in situ, rather than trying to run from it...which of course is impossible |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Nov 7th, 2010, 9:36am Jason - I do agree with you about ruminating about symptoms. Your focus then stays on them and it just increases your anxiety. I also know that if I stay too long on a forum (not this one, but another one) it can also make me focus too much on the anxiety and symptoms instead of trying to move on with doing other things. I do like this forum, because I think with it being monitored by RLR, it keeps you on tract and has you look at things objectively. I think that is helpful. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Nov 29th, 2010, 4:34am I bumped this up because I would like to see this thread going again. RLR - would you be able to review the last few responses and guide us with this? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by ckgage on Nov 30th, 2010, 8:48pm This was a reply from RLR posted on another thread that I think is brilliant and relevant to this discussion: Now if you're unwilling to take the time to sit yourselves down to work toward gaining the proper understanding concerning these palpitations and their true nature, then there is nothing I can do to help you. It is felt by some that it's more safe to believe them to be dangerous and simply use this forum for reassurance from irrational fears. Well I am considered to be advanced in age and growing older as the years pass since this forum was created. I won't be around here forever. You need to face yourselves, not some voice from a forum, and produce the discipline necessary to gain a firm understanding about these palpitation events. Now I have spoken ad-nauseum in hundreds of threads about the true nature of these events and how they are entirely dissociated from absolutely any form of pathological arrhythmia whatsoever. I have explained in detail what causes your palpitation events to occur and the furthest extent of their inability to harm you in any way. Yet, if you look at the threads, there is most always a brief acknowledgement of my posting that generally states to the effect "Ah, I see now Dr. Rane. Thank you so much for your post and I realize now that these things are harmless and cannot do anything serious to me. I'm much better now and your explanation makes perfect sense. . . .. . I just have this one other question and I swear I'll never ask again. Can these palpitations cause me to suddenly die? I know you talked about the regular kind of palpitations but these ones I'm having now are different. They go thump - bump - bump instead of the other way around. I've been reading that if you get those kind you're going to drop dead and now it has me scared. I don't want to leave my family or children. Please help me." This example depicts the compelling nature of anxiety and its ability to avoid the truth in favor of irrational fear. The affected individual feels an urgent and driven need to persist in their beliefs because the moment they cease such vigilence will be the very opportunity for tragedy to strike. It's anaolgous to the old entertainers who used to marvel us by balancing spinning plates atop of long sticks. They must continually run back and forth to plates that are beginning to slow down and wobble and keep all them running perfectly in order to prevent them from falling and shattering. That is the life of a person stricken with, and controlled by, anxiety. All of you need to be aware that anxiety is not a clinical illness or disease, but a state of mind. It is produced by thinking patterns which have been firmly established by repetition in the absence of logic and adherence to reality. It means that you believe in things that are not possible and you guide your lives accordingly because regardless of the facts to the contrary, danger is close and vigilence must be maintained. It is the elective striving to project into the future to prevent any negative course of action by altering circumstances in the present. It is the belief that total preparedness is the only method by which life can proceed safely and orderly in such a fashion that no mistakes are made. This pattern even spills over into forging these patterns into the lives of those around the person with anxiety. It is felt certain that they cannot do it right and something will certainly faulter if the anxiety-stricken individual does not step in and bear the responsibility of preparing life for them or instructing them along the way. There must be order and it must be timely and well in advance and preparation for life's oncoming daily events, covering any base necessary to avoid alteration. It is the fervent attempt to control life itself and defuse any changes from occurring. There is no spontanaiety, but rigid planning to preclude any unforseen and unexpected problem. Life isn't forged of egg-shells, but rather granite. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Jennifer on Dec 7th, 2010, 7:34am I don't mean to sound redundant here, but it is no doubt a control issue for me, too. I won't ride in airplanes because I have a need to be the one flying it. I can't ride on roller coasters because I don't like the idea a machine is keeping me on the track. I feel if I were in control I could divert something horrible from happening. I feel someone else, or a machine in the case of a roller coaster or the like, wouldn't know when or how to divert a situation to keep me safe. It sounds rather silly when I write that, but it is so true. When it comes to the body, I feel I am also at its mercy -- like a pilot or a machine -- and it can do whatever it wants, whenever it wants and not keep me safe. If I could control my body, be in the driver's seat with it, I could make sure everything goes the way I want it to, and I would not have horrible heart sensations, hyperventilation, anxiety, and so forth. If my body was a plane or a roller coaster, I feel my brain is my pilot or machine controlling everything and it doesn't care what I have to say or think to keep things comfortable, and I am just on the outside looking in, feeling out of control of everything that is going on inside of me. So, driving for me is the only time I feel in control, a need I have so if something were to go wrong I would know it and try and fix it. No doubt a possible illusion, for I am sure we are more in control of our bodies than I realize. But, I was taught to drive a car, but I was never taught how to control my body. I think all this is very interesting. I never thought about driving vs. heart disease and my thoughts about it. I just wonder why I feel I have to be in control. Even my own doctor kind of lectured me about how we can't control everything, things are going to happen -- almost like someone somewhere is turning a great wheel and it will land on my name from time to time. Somethings won't be as severe as others, but things in life will happen (I mean, I ended up with a rare benign third adrenal paraganglioma for crying out loud -- my name came up for that out of all things!) whether we like them or not. I understand that, but I don't like it, and you can imagine my anxiety level when I left the office that day. :D Funny, though, I guess it boils down to the fact I can handle outside things if I know what is going on (when I am driving I feel I know what is going on), but it's the unknown inside stuff that will send me to a corner crying like a baby out of severe fear. Where does this come from? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Dec 9th, 2010, 8:09am Jennifer, hi, I am also a Jennifer (Jen to most) agree with you to an extent but for me its also about history. I have been retracing my years of having therapy (a condition of being one is to have much oneself). Something I came up with in my notes to myself, had been the idea that I am "Too" open and honest. I remember discussing this with my therapist and how in close relationships I tell all. Its hard to explain what I mean by this, but I guess what I am saying is I also have a tendency to do all the work in relationships...I am not enigmatic in any way. However, at some point I felt as though I wanted to keep more of myself back, not hidden, but back. I did for a while, and it really helped me feel more in control, not of others, but of me and what happened to me. My friends would describe me as warm and/or friendly, and I liked that. But in truth I was overly, psychologically giving. I was an open book. It then for me, becomes about be empowered. Not making much sense I know but in short, I give over my self power quite easily in close relationships. I stopped doing that and had to have a sticker by my bed saying "Dont give yourself away today" ...when I moved I forgot to put it back up and coincidently slid back to my old habits. The reason I am like this, I believe relates to my history: youngest of four children, dominating father, passive yet strong mother, older sibling rivalry esp sister...(believe me she was very envious of me her little sister) a lot of how things were incited my behaviour, which was there as a defence at the time and helped. Its hard when we grow up to let go of those defences. I have read many, many books on psychotherapy and on the theory, but by far the nest book in understanding families and how they work and how you work, is a little book with John Cleese the comedian, and a therapist "Families and how to Survive Them" |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on May 21st, 2011, 5:25am I thought I would revive this thread because it helped a lot of us, and as Jason has returned, you may see how we worked things out for ourselves |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Chris on Jun 20th, 2011, 10:12am Hi all, I'm new here but followed this thread with interest and have just re-read the entire thing. I got the impression that you were really getting somewhere and it helped me over an anxious period just beginning to address things. What happened as it seemed to be going so well and then just ground to a halt? Did it help you guys at all? Chris |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Jun 20th, 2011, 4:36pm Okay, I want all of you to go to the front page of the forum where the statistics concerning this thread are depicted. It has received 185 responses, but an overwhelming 5544 persons have viewed it. This disparity appears in no other thread on this forum. How can it be that the unique content of this thread attracts so many viewers and yet so little response? This thread constitutes the most critical juncture of this forum and yet it receives the least actual interaction. What I'm suggesting here is that you devote time to discovering why. I certainly know the answer, but this thread is not about my guidance or participation. This is entirely your thread and what has taken place here thus far is the very looking glass that each of you must examine, for it holds within its parameters a very special key. If you seek change, if you seek your life back, free from the confines imposed by the physical impositions of anxiety such as benign heart palpitations, then this thread will eventually take you to that place where I cannot lead you. In order to succeed, you will only be able to proceed using strategies that are presently unfamiliar or uncomfortable to you. Think of this thread as a continuum, on one end the cognitive strategies which have culminated into the predicament you now face and on the other end is the undiscovered pathway to getting your life back. This thread is where you lead the way, where you must work to find the answers which will possess the measure of actual change. It represents the doorway through which people with anxiety of the type being demonstrated in the members and guests to the forum resist with great apprehension. It's the very reason that this thread has resulted in 5,544 viewers and only 185 responses of a very peculiar nature. If you were actually making progress in the true sense, this thread would appear at the top of the forum daily. At present, members or guests randomly go in search of it to bring it current once again. Isn't there something compelling about this phenomenon to you? Is it merely serendipity that this single thread, which depicts content far and away different from any other thread on the forum, should behave statistically in such a eerily predictable manner? What holds you from properly engaging in this thread is what holds you from reaching your intended destination. This single thread is the measurement of change being constituted within this forum. When you're ready, this thread will cease disappearing into the background and will become the most engaging and informative thread you've ever encountered. It is, however, up to you. It's place in this forum on any given day will tell you how you're doing as a group and individually. It's critical to note the latest response which has brought the thread to the surface once again. What you seek from this thread cannot be derived externally, for it will only yield expectation on such terms. Look among the threads of the posting and you will see my point here. So once again, we find the doorway briefly visible. Whether it recedes one again is entirely up to all of you. Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by martinpetersen on Jun 21st, 2011, 7:38am It sure is an interesting thread which, no doubt, has given many people a better insight in what "anxiety" is. Told in a metaphoric way with the "do you drive a car"-question. So far, so good. My benign palps don't show very often these days, and when they do, I don't care much. Maybe I'm cured. Maybe I have "adressed" or "faced" the anxiety, as you often have put it, RLR. And yet those very two expressions ("adress"/"face" the anxiety) have also irritated me quite a bit. For what does that excactly imply? I had quite an extended period in which I certainly believed that my palps were due to some kind of "anxiety", and I certainly (intellectually) "knew" that this wasn't caused by some disease in my heart (due to two medical tests - ecg and all ...). But still with that knowledge present, palps came and went. Sometimes quite bothering/scaring. (By the way: it sometimes feel as if cause and effect connect the other way around, so that palpitations cause anxiety. Could that be true?) So even if I could say to myself: Yes, the whole thing started in a stressy time when my stepfather died, and it went to its peak in a situation where I lived alone in a foreign, big city for two months and had to sort of recreate an everyday life, a new rythm of living. Even with that knowledge present in a very concious level - I think :-) - the palps didn't cease to come. But maybe you need to be very patient and realize that EVEN when you have "adressed" or "faced" your anxiety, it can take quite a long time for your heart, sorry; vagus nerve :-) to stop teasing you. I wish it could be less of a riddle what "adressing" or "facing" your anxiety actually implies. Anyway, thanks for many good thoughts, which I believe has done their job in curing me. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Chris on Jun 21st, 2011, 10:41am For me my anxiety started when I was 20. I'm 23 now. I've always been a pretty anxious person. I used to be very shy at school and I wasn't really that popular. As I grew up I become more confident but still wasn't really a people person. I had a small group of close friends but found making long-term friends was very difficult. I went through quite a stressful time in my late teens, moving away from the area I grew up, going to (and dropping out of) university, starting my first permanent job, and burning the candle at both ends! Not to mention money problems for a number of years. I guess it all took its toll. I know now that my ectopic beats are benign, but in the time it took to gain that reassurance, anxiety had already set in and I was feeling all sorts. Every time I got over one symptom, another would kick up. Funnily enough, I'd stop worrying about the first and it would go away! The palps always stayed with me though, sometimes bad, sometimes not so bad. Despite all the reassurance, I still find them incredibly uncomfortable and the odd one or two in a day will set me off and keep me tense all day, despite knowing deep down there is nothing to worry about. I think it's the discomfort more than anything. If you're out and trying to enjoy yourself with friends, to have one of these is incredibly disconcerting. I'm a lot better than I used to be but what confuses me more than anything and what I still get wound up about is that they are so random! Sometimes after drinking I'll get them and I can simply dismiss it as being the result of alcohol, but sometimes they will just come on randomly and this is what makes me feel weird. If there was a particular trigger that I could locate, I could then single that out and avoid it or take steps to prevent the trigger being pushed so to speak. Unfortunately I am unable to do this which suggests to me that there is no one particular trigger, but more a combination of things which led to me simply burning out. At 23 years old I don't really like going to bed early, I'm always on the go, but one week when I experimented a bit by going to bed early every night, that week I don't remember having any palps at all which is a first for me, but when I went back to my "normal" routine, lo and behold they returned as usual. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by ckgage on Jun 21st, 2011, 8:26pm I'm sure this thread receives little attention because most of us, myself included at times, come to this site for reassurance. Looking at the root cause of things is really different than looking for assurance! I've been working on this for a little while......if it takes a doctor's assurance to tell me I am ok, I will be forever and always running to the doctor. I'm now taking note of any symptoms, writing them down along with any pertinent information, and planning to wait a couple of weeks before going to the doctor. Almost without exception, the mysterious symptom has come and gone well within the span of a couple of weeks. A few have persisted, and make the "list" when I go to see my doctor again. This has helped me be less reliant on an external source for my reassurance and instead pushed me to be observant of my own body. It's been good! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Chris on Jun 22nd, 2011, 4:13am I agree that most people come to the site to seek reassurance from RLR and the other members that nothing is physically wrong with them. However, if this kind of reassurance worked for people like you and I, why then did we not just accept our doctors' opinion in the first place? With all due respect to RLR, who does a superb job here, he has not actually physically examined us so what makes us think that the reassurance from RLR would work any better than reassurance from our GP or cardiologist? From a personal point of view I found I needed reassurance, felt better for a while, but then it started to wear off and I needed more reassurance. Clearly therefore as RLR and others were saying, the underlying issue had not been resolved. That's why this thread has so many views - basically, people are coming here for reassurance but when they see a potential cure or route to recovery, they swarm around it. Having said that, few people are willing to actually become actively involved and participate in the discussion because naturally people are unwilling to discuss what they fear. They try to bury it, pretend that everything is ok until the next time anxiety rears it's ugly head. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jun 22nd, 2011, 6:56am RLR....I apologize as I am one of those that just view rather than get engaged. I have had Palpitations for 5 years now and have gone through the ups and downs that anxiety has caused...even to the point of agoraphobia. It is not a fun road to take at all and I think most people are exhausted and have given up hope. I know I have...at least until I found this website. I have been able to travel and do things I havent been able to do in the past. Mine all started when I had 2 of my sisters and my mother all diagnosed with Brugada's disease and they all had difibrilators put in. I had all of the test and was found not to have it but part of me believes maybe they could have missed something. At this same time I changed jobs, had my first baby and bought my first home! What I think I have learned from you is that I need to accept 100%!!!....not 99% that these things are the vagus nerve stimulation. If I do this then I will not be bothered by them and they will reduce significantly in numbers, intensity and then I will at the same time reduce all of the other anxiety symptoms that have manifested because of the palpitations and the anxiety they have caused me. I am to the point where I am really tired of living with anxiety so I think I am closer now than ever to making that so called jump into the fear pit and trust that nothing bad will ever come from these darn things. I not only have to make that jump...but I have to stay in that pit and never look back. We will see if I have the courage to do so very soon : ) Thanks for all of the help RLR. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Dodger on Jun 23rd, 2011, 1:14pm I have been reading through this thread a little everyday. It is amazing feeling as little lights come on as you realize your own "weakness" with these issues. I have begun to feel a sense of peace and control returning to my life. The fear is subsiding and I have also found my anxiety lowering as well. This car accident analogy has been amazing. You see I am very much a "car guy". I race cars on a regular basis. I have and continue to compete in rally and road races. The thought of a fatal accident never crosses my mind during a race. I have this focus and am in this place where it is just me and the car and the track. So how did I get to this point in my life where heart palpitations and anxiety and GERD have gotten so much control and power over my daily life??? Now I am beginning to figure how to take back these feelings. The palpitations are still there, but I am certainly feeling them a lot less. Maybe I am just becoming less aware of them or maybe less concerned over them is a better term. I can shoot down a straight at 140 mph ,brake down to 25 and hit a turn with tires squealing, smoke billowing, surrounded by a dozen cars and don't think twice. I little fluttering in my chest and I instantly think I am about to die. Why?? I find peace behind the wheel of a car, now I am realizing that I can find that peace everywhere else to. I hope to be able to become clearer in my thoughts as I read more of this thread. Thank you all for helping with these insights. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Chris on Jun 23rd, 2011, 2:20pm 765D56555740320 wrote:
Great post Dodger and I agree 100%. I've been reading this thread for a while now as really I just stumbled across it. I was a little disappointed to have "missed the boat" so to speak when it was really going last year as it seemed an enlightening discussion so it's nice to get a few new responses. I agree it's odd that we seem to take risks every day in our lives without thinking twice about them, but as you say we get these beats and despite our doctors saying we're fine, the cardiologist saying we're fine, RLR saying we're fine, every piece of every document on the subject saying we're fine, we still panic and fear these darned beats every day! I'd like to think I'm a very rational person. I also like to think I'm smart enough to work things out and base my thoughts on the evidence rather than some suspicion. And yet this is different somehow. That's the big question I guess! But I agree with you, since reading this thread I've taken a new view on my health anxiety as a whole and I seem a bit calmer. There is of course a long road ahead, a lot of work to be done to undo the tension and stress I've felt over the last three years, but we have to start somewhere and this is as good a place as any! Chris |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Jun 23rd, 2011, 4:07pm Now we're beginning to head in the right direction. This thread doesn't require my guidance in any real sense because the revelations which you will discover through direct participation will be entirely derived by those who engage it on their own terms. In other words, how you react to this thread will speak volumes and you should pay very careful attention to this element. If you are one of the some 5400 or so persons who merely read the thread but cannot become involved, then you need to ask yourself why. If you participate but can't seem to pierce the veil which leads to an area being avoided, then you need to ask yourself why. If you don't know why, post the question and seek responses from those who have stepped across that barrier. You must draw the collective issues out into the open within the safety of anonymity and become unafraid that doing so will cause some loss of control over the circumstances. Realize that this fear is what causes many persons to develop significant anxiety, for they exert avoidance of issues which generate a perceived threat to their well-being in some regard. The result for many is a form of indentured servitude where control over daily regimen is induced, often accompanied by rituals in many forms necessary to keep life in balance. An unidentifiable unrest seems to prevail and it is this lack of identity or definition which produces the overwhelming fear. It becomes a life with near total energy divested in prevention of circumstances that are unreal and imaginary, leaving little to no energy devoted to one's aspirations, goals and sense of accomplishment. You have the same capacity as you've always held, but it is being depleted daily by attempting to exert control over factors that are irrational in form and only exist in the realm of unwarranted speculation. You must expose the barriers which rob you of the energy necessary to take back your lives. You must challenge their existence and demand proof of any speculative consequence. You must come to realize that the origin of your entire difficulty is based in your patterns of life. Fears must be fed to remain alive. It is this compelling drive which imprisons persons with anxiety. Remember that anxiety is not a disorder at all, but rather simply a state of mind. If it becomes habitual, it produces a constant state of unrest. People with anxiety find themselves consistently being drawn to elements which strengthen and intensify their fears. If they experience a palpitation event, they most often feel compelled to peer into the farthest range of tragic outcome, to read the ending of the book before understanding its content, to try their best to predict the outcome no matter how far-fetched, subsequently developing apprehension of such an outcome as though it were somehow magically made real by their unregulated thought process. All of this and more is what you must question and seek to determine within yourselves. With the help of others experiencing similar difficulties, you must use this thread to draw forth and explore these expressions and put them to the challenge. You must avoid looking externally for guidance or reassurance and realize that it has been within you all along. You've simply lost faith in your abilities in this regard. If you want to truly be free of difficulty, including that associated with benign palpitations, then you must step up to the plate among one another and take the journey together. I'll be around and I'll certainly be examining the passages generated on the thread, but I can't take you across the threshold. You must do this yourself. I can tell you that what awaits you is what you've thought to be lost and irretrievable. Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Jun 26th, 2011, 11:20am I am pleased the thread has been revived. Even though our paths are very different - we all, I believed, had so much in common. A bit like a common denominator. I like what Martin (who has very few palps these days) says about time. Even if we master the stress or anxiety, the nervous system, |I believe will take time to settle. I think this exploratory thread can be a first step, or first few steps to understanding why we are suffering. I know that the thread forced me to think, or rather re-think everything. I know that some people do get these temporarily after a bereavement or major life crisis. Also depressed and very anxious people. I was not anxious before the palpitations, therefore I felt upset at any mention that I could have developed these because I am in any way anxious. I'd think, what nonsense..and say to people, "I only became anxious after getting these things". BUT..this thread made me really think about this as honestly (with myself) as i could be. I decided that after 3 years of stress, I had indeed become anxious. This thought made me feel ashamed...and there are people who will treat anxious people as though they are somehow inadequate. (I have dropped those people out of my life - or at the very least with some, see less of them and share very little with them). The irony is, that even though certain people can feel superior to the anxious, it appears to be projection of their own vulnerabilities for which an anxious person is possibly fertile ground. The anxious may be an attractive place to plant their own anxieties into. Understanding this led me to think the stress and what caused it and why did I then become so frightened. Yes they are scary, yes they are uncomfortable, but, they are telling me something too. I have really worked hard on how I allowed things to build up until my body cried out. Even though I understand, I am still working on myself. I do have really good days, which I had not had before. I have bad days too, because although I understand how I deal with stress (hyperventilating, tense, negative thinking, spiraling fear etc) it does not mean I have achieved a solution. That is, I am still learning, or rather teaching my body and mind to relax and mostly to look at how I allowed all the factors that led to stress. I understand tat some people I liked and needed at a time when things were difficult - used my vulnerability against me and hurt me very much. I understand how I let this happen. I understand why I did not look after myself in other situations. I understand that things wont change because I want them too...I HAVE TO make things different for myself. I understand that the answer to the cure of these things lays within, with change and with honesty with oneself. let go of saying - I am not anxious, or mine come when I am relaxed, or any of that. Better to ask yourself and your body...why are you here? What are these palpitations and/or other symptoms saying to me? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by martinpetersen on Jun 26th, 2011, 11:49am Very nice and thought-creating post, Typer! Really some constructive attempts to understand what anxiety is, and how people cope with it. Thank you! Martin |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by lorri on Jun 28th, 2011, 6:51am yes im with the other guys, its a control thing and yet im also fine in a car as a passenger but dont really have much control then do i? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jun 28th, 2011, 7:27am No, but have you ever had a crash or an accident in a car before? I'm willing to bet that if you had, you'd probably be anxious about it from that point on. You don't have anxiety over it now because you have nothing which to base a fear on because you've had no bad experience. The anxieties over heart palpitations stem from having perceived "bad experiences" with our hearts. That is to say, almost no one on the forum genuinely thought to themselves "Oh, that's nothing to worry about" when they first experienced palpitations. The oppisite occured and most people were either struck with panic or extremely frightened as to what was happening. I would think it likely that if one of us had a car crash or car accident, we'd also develop anxiety over getting in cars too. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Dodger on Jun 29th, 2011, 4:25pm I kind of agree with you point and I kind of disagree. I have had car accidents and some have been very bad. However I don't fixate on them like I have done with these benign palpitations. I still feel it is (at least for me) more of an unknown, uncontrollable event that comes out of the blue and seems to have no rhyme or reason. This is what disturbs me the most. After a car accident I can say " This happened because this happened". Before I found this forum and the great people on it, when I had palpitations I did not understand why they were happening. There was no concise reason for them starting, ending or length of them occurring. When they stopped I still did not have any information about what had just happened or why. The unknown is what was causing my anxiety and fears. When I have had accidents. Ok let me clear up about the accidents and I do mean plural. I race cars for a hobby. I have had accidents that would cause some people to walk for the rest of their lives :). Anyway when I have had accidents I have never not gotten back into a car. When I have had palpitations I have stopped the activity that I was doing when they happened. If I had just eaten a particular food and I has a palpitation I stopped eating that food. If I was doing an activity when they happened I would not do that activity again. I have since realized that this is not the way to live. Today I had a small palpitation event that not to long ago would have had me running to a doctor or ER. Instead I just relaxed let it pass and went about my day. So I have rambled enough for now I just thought I would share my thoughts on the current topic and how it was helping me. Hope you all are doing well and take care |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jun 30th, 2011, 2:28pm We went over the issue of control in the early postings of the thread, have you read those? Your experience with cars is interesting. Since you race in cars mabye you have desensitised yourself to the fear of crashing and dying? We're all different, but it's the same fear that stops people from getting on a plane or boat: you can't control the situation if it goes bad. I have started to get anxious as a passenger in the car with my mum. She drives unreasonably fast on the motorway, gets close to cars in front and seems to have poor control over the brakes (she slows down gradually then slams them on for a second at the end). I was offered a holiday at the end of this year but have declined because I don't want to get on a plane. That's not the only reason, I would get on one if it was somewhere I really wanted to see, but the plane is a conveniant excuse for me to not go. I didn't let that reason be known, and I know statistically it's much less likely to crash than a car, but that doesn't seem to help. A crash in a plane during flight is pretty much guaranteed to be fatal, whereas a car is not. You can't really have a "mild" plane crash, unless it's before take-off or after landing, but in a car you might only crash going 20 mp/h. I have always thought to myself that I would carry a parachute on a plane if I had to get on one, but that wouldn't help much if it was over the ocean. I would also require a boat, food and water. I wonder if you can get packs which include a self inflating boat and parachute attached? Regardless, food and water would still be required. Well anyway, yes control is a big factor and something which we must learn to overcome. We can only control a small fraction of our body's functions such as movement, speech, etc. and we don't become paranoid about the other body functions over which we have no control. I don't see anyone having panic attacks about not being able to regulate their own body temperature at will. The heart though, is obviously perceived as a much more dangerous and urgent organ to malfunction, but there are many functions which we can't control that would kill is just as quickly if they were to malfunction. Digestion, for example; if we were to stop digesting food we would die an even worse, much slower death than our hearts stopping suddenly. 674C47444651230 wrote:
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Jul 1st, 2011, 4:35am George, I part agree, in that what we suffer from what could be a kind of post trauma. I certainly did feel traumatized by the first event, and then subsequent events, particularly the light headiness and the near fainting. Who wouldn't be? The survival instinct is strong and kicks in before I have time to think "I'll be fine" etc. I dont think, I just freeze and the fear zooms down to my stomach and that's it, panic. I do soothe myself and get over it until it strikes again. Each time I get rapid heart beats and pauses and faint feelings, I am re-traumatized. I think in part we may learn to live with them and not get so traumatized, but, the words may and is are very different. I am better - I dont run to the doctors every five minutes...but these things are undoubtedly frightening - our heart beating erratically - my life's centre going haywire with me having no control over it - of course its scary - its hard to override survival instinct. But, what I do think the search is about, for me anyway, is why I get them, what is the root cause and can I then work on the why and make changes in my life. I feel that is where my energy needs to be...working on cause not symptoms. This I am doing. I have been looking at mindfulness and am just starting reading Eckhart Tolle and his book, "The Power of Now"...Someone I know who had these for 3 years managed to overcome them by following this man's ideas and applying them. She is cured of palps, save an occasional one. She never did get over the fear of them, but, she did change the way she lives her life, the people in it, and how she perceived stress. It was from this work that the palps began to decline and finally went away, save an odd light one now and then. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by phlashman on Jul 2nd, 2011, 2:38am All these points are well taken, and I certainly get it. I suppose the anxiety I get these with these things are a matter of "not being in control". When driving a vehicle you feel (even though its a bit of an illusion), you have "control", to a certain degree. You satisfy yourself that if you stay vigilant and obey the traffic laws etc, the odds are in your favor. With these things it seems to be a crap shoot. Even though the tests come back OK etc...they're still unsettling and worrisome. Logic tells you "something" is amiss. In my case there "was" a reason for these things happening. Turns out to be a "thyroid" issue. Oddly enough, it was something that had been overlooked by 2 ER's and at least 4 or 5 Doctors. So, I suppose from my perspective its was a "control" issue, However, had I not insisted that my present physician look for other reasons the problem I had, it may have been overlooked for years, leaving me too suffer through it longer. I certainly know that we're all different and I took comfort from yourself and others here when I was having a "bad" patch. I don't blame modern medicine, and I still have faith. After all, we're all only human... :) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by martinpetersen on Jul 2nd, 2011, 3:14am I feel also sure - at least in my own case :-) that the pair: palpitations-anxiety does constitute (can you say so?) a vicious circle. Even though I feel very certain that my heart is all right and that palps come from outside the heart, then a certain nervous feeling/anxious feeling show up immeiately after a palpitation-event. Just like when you feel "choked" when for instance a very lound sound suddenly happens close to you. So what I think, is: Chronic anxiety of some kind concious or unconcious can create palps. And the palps themselves also produce activity in the nervous system and adrenaline production. Have a nice weekend! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Jul 2nd, 2011, 12:10pm Okay, just a comment to help further your exploration. It's important to take into account instinctual drives and archaic response sets which are common in all humans. This will help you to understand how and why the brain responds to fear stimulus. When you experience an event that invokes fear and danger, the brain records every possible nuance associated with the event in order to establish and maintain what could be referred to as an advance warning system of sorts. For instance, if you are walking down your neighborhood street and at a precise point a bad dog emerges from a hole in your neighbor's fence and threatens or frightens you, all of your sensations whether visual, tactile, auditory, olfactory and even gustatory if involved will be established as a pattern along with physical sequelae that accompanies the event, such as rapid pulse and respiration or other changes due to sympathetic nervous response. On any subsequent occasion that you walk down that same street, it will seem as though your defense system suddenly snaps on and just your increasing proximity to the hole in the fence will re-create the response set from the original event, causing you to prematurely avoid further approach or alternatively take a stand and confront the dog. Once you've experienced benign palpitations and they are unwittingly perceived to be a threat, any subsequent incidence will continue to produce similar reaction until such time that you transform your perception from irrational to logical. That is in part, the goal of this forum, to provide you with facts that can gradually restore the proper perspective and logical resolution to the circumstances. You are repeatedly frightened and your confidence challenged because of what you believe benign palpitations to represent. This pattern, however, is cause for you to explore the matter far more in depth because it most often exists in a similar form with respect to historical patterns and not merely the onset of benign palpitation events. In sum, take the content being developed on this thread and apply it to yourself from the standpoint of looking more in depth at the rationales being explored. How we communicate these perspectives outwardly is not how they are dealt with internally. The car accident example is merely to portray the relative risk that we rationalize on a daily basis, moreover our perceptions versus the actual potential at any given interval. Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by martinpetersen on Jul 2nd, 2011, 12:40pm Thanks for response, RLR Your "bad-dog-story" and the nervous system I understand. Thanks. I guess the hard part is what you call "to transform your perception from irrational to logical". I - and probably serveral people here - believe to have understood and accepted totally on an "intellectual level" that benign palps are benign and harmless. That way of understanding is transformed. Is what you're saying then, that the perception - and what goes on "automatically" in the nervous system as a concequence of that - can not just be transformed as a matter of concious will, but will have to sort of be "trained to understand" that certain feelings don't imply danger? Anyway, that is the sense I make of it. Thanks again. Good discussion. Martin |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Jul 2nd, 2011, 1:31pm That is indeed correct, Martin. Transformation is the act of training in many instances and if you look at the circumstances for many of you involved in a similar pattern set, it is a sense of training through repetition that results in the inability to alter perceptions as rapidly as accepting the actual premise of benign palpitations on a purely intellectual plane. In other words, understanding the actual physiological event from a logistical standpoint does not always translate to the commensurate absence of emotional discomfort that the events produce. This disparity is produced by the lack of certainty with which many people judge life events. In other words, let's use our bad dog example to illustrate my point. If each time you approach the hole in the fence, the dog appears and takes on an aggressive posture but does not attack, you may intellectually deduce that the dog's disposition is merely one of posturing. This is certainly plausible since many animals limit their response based upon territorial boundary, with advancement elevating the animal's aggression and retreat defusing it. But in some instances, animals pose aggression for other reasons and it is this unknown that limits the ability for you to be entirely unafraid when proceeding in the direction of the hole in the fence. The line separating the response set in humans is naturally variable, with some demonstrating the perception that the animal is merely acting territorial and despite encroachment to the point of walking near the territorial boundary, the animal will not actually attack. Still others take the course of least risk by establishing the rationale that it's better to be safe than sorry, ultimately choosing an alternate future route and yielding to the dog's perceived domain. Benign palpitations are extra-cardiac in nature. They are universally perceived to constitute interference with the normal rhythm of the heart, which is technically incorrect. The only knowledge set that people have to draw upon in order to make sense of the events is based upon general knowledge relative to cardiac arrhythmias and their association to the characteristics of heart disease or cardiac event. If we extrapolate this example to a point within relevance on a clinical plane, benign palpitations are the physiological equivalent of a muscle twitch of the eyelid, known as myokymia, and yet when someone experiences a muscle twitch of the eyelid, there is no association with such an event to the potential risk of damaging or loss of eye-sight. It does not bear the same mark of apprehension as benign palpitations and yet the two events are physiologically equal in terms of their origin and outcome. It is the misperception and personal codification that benign palpitations are more than what they seem, that they possess the capacity to do harm based upon how they've been defined in the mind of the sufferer. The brain is merely responding in an instinctual context because it's being told that the events are a potential risk by virtue of the response set being demonstrated. Thus, the advanced warning system mentioned previously simply remains on a variable state of alert because the events are unpredictable in nature. People with benign palpitations feel no less at risk than the individual with a true cardiac risk. This perception is so real that I've been told by countless patients that I don't understand the nature of the problem and that something has to be wrong, that I'm just not proficient enough to locate the source of the trouble. This is a clear example of how intuition manifested from a state of fear becomes far more convincing than known fact. It is a compelling need to remain vigilant because the brain is seeking survival to whatever extent felt required to overcome a threat which in reality, does not exist in any form. Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by martinpetersen on Jul 2nd, 2011, 2:22pm Thanks a lot. I sort of take those words in! Martin |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by martinpetersen on Jul 2nd, 2011, 10:01pm And: It doesn't help you much thinking about killing the dog! (Though you might be able to pass the fence without provoking it too much) :-) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Jul 3rd, 2011, 3:58pm Really interesting, and making much sense to me. So, am I right in thinking that there are two levels of fear response, one of the psychological instincts (thought) and one of the nervous system (somatic)? Are the two acting together or even cyclical? Sort of thought>>>>Nervous system>>>>thought, etc? Or is thought feeding the nervous system? Is it something like that perhaps? My difficulty is to get past the fear, which often feels irrational and my mind is wondering why my stomach feels fear at the pit of it? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jul 5th, 2011, 11:52am RLR I have been reading this entire post quite often and am working hard in all areas of anxiety palpitations and stress. What I have been working hard on lately is the thought process I have when the skips happen or I feel symptoms of anxiety. What I do now is instead of trying to figure out whats happening with me I have been asking a question...."you know that these feelings and heart skips are brought on by an elevated level of stress....so lets stop and see what your thought patterns are or situation you are in that is causing your fear" when I do this I see that the thought patterns in my head are far more active than I ever realized. It is not necessarily slowing down the symptoms, but just to realize how fast my thoughts race ALL DAY is very disconcerning. I wake up wondering what my day will bring....as you stated in a post I read of yours...to live a life in fear is no life to live (or something close to this) and that is what I do every day....I live my life in fear! Hopefully I can cognitively start changing the thoughts and physiology of the habit of fear I have created! Since I have been suffering for about 5 years with skips and anxiety it seems almost like an impossibility! You say that the brain records every possible nuance recorded with all of these events...Is it possible to reverse this recording with all of the events I have recorded as danger? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Chris on Jul 5th, 2011, 12:42pm 3B303E3A362C372D2B20590 wrote:
This is basically how I feel. The worst thing is I can sit here now and have an ectopic beat, and I know that it won't harm me - if it could, I'd already have been harmed because I've had these for nearly three years. However, it does still send a quick flash of panic because they're sort of unexpected. The flash of panic kind of feels like when you get cold water thrown on you. It's that instant feeling of shock and this tends to feel more horrible and unnerving than the actual missed beat! However, I see this as pretty much a natural reaction which I am powerless to stop, just as I'm powerless to stop the shock feeling when someone throws cold water on me, whether I know it's coming or not. I'm like you in that when I wake up, it doesn't take long for me to wonder what the day will bring in terms of my anxiety. I sit at a desk all day so I'm not really active and I tend to finish my day stressed, tired, often with a headache and very uptight and tense. This of course doesn't help! I crave an outdoor job but there isn't much around here unfortunately! I did notice that there was a time when I'd feel less anxious and my first thought in the morning wasn't one of wondering when my next anxiety attack would be, but of what I was looking forward to today! Needless to say the palpitations were fewer, and when they did occur I actually barely noticed them! I would imagine this is the way forward, to work on the anxieties in your life and give yourself a sense of calm and positivity and optimism, and the rest will simply fall into place and the ectopic beats will go away on their own as a result of this. That's what I'm hoping anyway, and I guess that's what I experienced for a brief while! Unfortunately such is the way with anxiety that I managed to fall back into the trap :-[ Still, if we can do it once, we can do it again right? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Jul 7th, 2011, 12:17pm Chris I like your description of water being suddenly thrown on you....a bit like Martin's sudden loud bang analogy. That is what happens for me...a sudden panic takes hold of me and I am frozen with fear. I talk myself down but each time I get a bad run where it feels like a fast heart beat pounding in my chest - I feel scared again. To be honest I am tired out by them and managing them. Most days now they are mild, but I also get really bad days. What is still there and I believe is why the palps are still around, is stress. I can feel my shoulders tensing, and my legs tightly wrapping around each other, my breathing becomes shallow. About 20 times a day I check and breath slowly and relax my body. Its amazing if you check yourself, how tense everything is |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by jothenurse on Jul 9th, 2011, 6:31am I think it is very difficult when you get palpitations or tachycardia (like I do) to not fear it. But, I do think in time and with practice and controlling what you think about these episodes does in fact lessen them in time. You may not always be able to stop the palps/tachycardia, but you can definitely work on what you do with them. Not creating more panic and adrenaline when they occur. That is what I am doing and I do think it has helped. I think what RLR says makes a lot of sense, your body reacts to the palps/tachycardia with fear, and then it programs it to continue to react that way. It becomes a habit, and habits can be hard to break. But, in time, you can break that habit. I think this occurs with a lot of the symptoms of anxiety (palps/dizziness/feelings of unreality/upset stomachs). You have to know that it is the anxiety causing these feelings and then not put more adrenaline in your body by fearing these. I am curious to know how many other people on this forum have not just the palps, but other symptoms of the stress/anxiety. I have done a lot of things to push myself to work through these unrealistic fears, and have found that I can do these things (driving out of town even though I get scared of, "what if my heart starts pounding", "what if I get dizzy?") What I do wonder though is that if you push yourself to do things that are scary, how long does it take before these feelings of anxiety go away? I know it can take quite awhile. You have to do the actions before the feelings go away. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Andrea on Jul 9th, 2011, 9:45am I didn't drive for a very long time because I knew I could not control the other drivers on the road and what they did. I have major health anxiety because if I get some kind of illness that you can't cure, I am no longer in control. I do not fly in airplanes because I am not the one in control of the plane, how it flies, it's mechanics, etc. I could go on for hours but I'll stop. I am someone who wants things to be controllable, predictable. I like certainty. These stupid palpitations are anything but. They come and go as they please, as often as they please. It throws me off. I do not like it. This is where I am at today. 8 months ago when they started I had other issues complicating my thinking about my palpitations but many of those I've managed to clear up. Now, is my sheer annoyance of the unexpectedness of my palpitations somehow tied in with the idea that maybe I still have some sense of fear of these things? Could this be an issue for a lot of us still struggling? I don't think there is any way to just let them go and not be thinking about them on some level. To me, that would be like riding a bicycle trying to ignore the fact that I'm riding a bicycle. Not possible. So, how do I move forward from here? Lots of things to ponder while I'm out shopping this afternoon... |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Topo on Jul 11th, 2011, 4:38pm 3D362438393A570 wrote:
You've made some good points Jason. I'll chime in now, even tho I've not read this entire thread. The point has been made that the impending doom of a car accident isn't on our minds simply because we don't physically feel that happening often during the course of a day. When you feel the power in the physical sensation of a palp, it gets your attention. Lets say I don't now believe that they translate to a precursor of a potentially lethal condition. Fine...that still gives me no solace in the fact that they are very irritating, and are NOT normal in a healthy body. It is obvious that something is wrong, and this condition needs to be healed. The associated sensations are so uncomfortable, I cannot ignore them. This continues to fortify the thought that there is a problem which needs attention. We wouldn't all be hanging around here looking for help, if this condition could be ignored like a muscle twitch somewhere else in the body. In my mind, drugs are not the answer. There must be a method for eliminating them. Stress reduction is elusive. Seeking joy is a goal. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by martinpetersen on Jul 11th, 2011, 11:49pm You're right: It IS hard to ignore them, even though you know they're benign. Are palps "the disease that is no disease"? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Jul 12th, 2011, 7:19am Since having these things, I have come across many people who had them, but they are gone. Most of the people are on the internet, but I now personally know 4 people who have had them. One person said "They just went away as suddenly as they came" - I asked her what was different and she said that nothing much had changed. The other person had them after a bereavement and she had a beta blocker for a few weeks, then they just went. They did return when she had a bout of sickness but she resumed to normal when that subsided. The 3rd person is an old friend who had them in her 20's (40 years ago) and she had valium for a year then slowly withdrew. The valium calmed her enough for the palps to stop. She gets the odd one now and then, but considers herself largely palp free. Lastly is a friend's daughter who had them for 3 years. She became anxious and agoraphobic etc. She had therapy and some really supportive friends, one of whom was a psychologist who helped her with the agoraphobia. She is fine now, again with the odd palp which she manages every well. I know a few on the internet who have had them for 30 and 40 years. There is a person who had them for 7 years and now they have just gone....just like that. When I am really down, I try to remember these people and how they manage and how they can just go I do know that every one of the people I come across had some form of stress and anxiety before they came. The fear I get is that my nervous system was damaged by high dosage nicotine patches. As I dont understand the nervous system at all, I think I may be worrying for nothing. But like Andrea, its that being out of control, or at least believing that I am is awful. However, I am sure we do have control and that the good doctor may know this...that our fate lays in our own hands in this instance. I think the more we understand our bodies, minds and nervous system, the more we have a chance of taking some control back. If the good doctor looks in, one thing I'd love to understand is how the nervous system works and how it responds to stimuli. For example, why does soothing music seem to settle peoples nerves? How does meditation work on the nervous system? Why does proper breathing help? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Topo on Jul 12th, 2011, 9:28am 5578716473010 wrote:
Good observation. Mine began a few months after a 3 year physical and emotionally draining monster of renovating an investment home during the housing crash. Seems a bit weird that it took several months before the palps started, but, it's still very obvious where they came from. The good Doc here is appreciated greatly for his persistence in calming the anxiety with medical facts. Still, it's hard to think that these are simply muscle twitches stemming from the vagus nerve, and haven't anything to do with the heart itself. I want to believe that. I have had mine vanish, too...for as much as 6 months, but they will suddenly return. After more than 1 year of regular acupuncture, I'd say the jury is still out as to whether it helps. Sometimes I think it does, sometimes not. I *do* wonder if there is any chance benign palps can mutate into a more serious condition. I can occasionally have a little variety in the actual symptom, which makes me wonder about that. Basically, the variation is with the intensity of them. Sometimes they are short blips or flutters. Sometimes they will produce that very annoying lump in the throat, and sometimes with that will be a sort of burning sensation, as well as a feeling of being physically drained/exhausted for a few moments. Would be interesting to hear what has worked for people that had them vanish. Visualization? Meditation? etc. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Jul 12th, 2011, 2:51pm Topo same here...3 years of renovations and running out of funds to complete quickly preceded mine coming 2 years ago. As for the variations, most of us comment on the differences from light, annoying but less scary bumps on the chest wall to long flutters and runs of them. Can feel the heart flipped over, can stop and start, bang hard and fast...etc...all part of the same thing as I understand it |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Dodger on Jul 13th, 2011, 12:49pm It is truly amazing how much we all have in common. SInce finding this forum and discovering the cause of my palpitations, my mind has become so peaceful. Activities that I had stopped, I am doing again. Foods that I had stopped eating I am eating again. I am even going on vacation away from home for the first time in years. I still have flutterings and a little anxiety but now I seem to be able to handle it now that I know I am not getting ready to die at the drop of a hat. You folks and RLR are so appreciated in my life you just don't know. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Topo on Jul 13th, 2011, 4:37pm 0E252E2D2F384A0 wrote:
I know this is an old thread, but it's as current as when it began. I think I'm past the point of worrying about dying due to these things. Where I'm at with it is a place where I feel "less than" others. I feel limited, or held back because I am not normal...sort of feel defective. The more true fact is, that this problem could be seen as a gift. To each, that will have a different meaning. For me it's about controlling my emotions and thoughts. Interesting how this condition suggests you have no control over when they occur, but I am just now opening to the possibility that you have all the control. Sure, you don't have control over some things that happen in your life, but you *can* control how you react. In a serious example of grieving a loss, it's impossible to not feel terrible, but around other "stuff" that can happen, you certainly are able to take the higher road. My recent example was very dramatic with symptoms occurring within a day of the event. Without any details, it was a "blow up" of sorts that had me slamming a drawer and raising my voice. ...boom! palps moved in SO fast, it made me aware of the obvious lesson that they are serving a purpose to allow me to grow and be calm, and not live in fear.....AND, not live in the future for that time when I have the life circumstance that I seek. Back to that old, ever meaningful, saying, Be Here Now. OK...that's my esoteric 2 bits on the matter, at this point in time. More to come, I bet. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jul 15th, 2011, 7:24pm RLR I just read your post to "Arrhythmia or just plain old panic?". You continue to amaze me with your ability to explain what is happening with our bodies. I have been reading this post as well as others a lot....not seeking reassurance but trying to strengthen my understanding of what is happening to me physically and what am I doing and have done in the past to make this happen. I am pretty sure I am getting very close to a solid CHANGE in a lot of what I do. Lets take today for example....I have a VERY stressful job and today was just one of those days. At the end of today of course my heart was a mess because how could it not be with the strain and stress I have put on it all week. But instead of realizing that.... I was in what I call the "bad thinking pattern" and just feeding into this unfounded belief that there is something wrong with me. Then I was on the site reading your new post and was able to shift out of that thinking and go outside and enjoy my 3 year old and 5 year old riding their bikes despite the ever present symptoms. They reduced dramatically, although they were still there, and I enjoyed myself. My whole point to this post is to say that I am building a NEW foundation. The base of this is the absolute that my palpitations and anxiety symptoms are caused by my reaction to what I think are stressful things in life and my reactions to this stress and on top of that the symptoms of this reaction. So from there I am trying hard on a daily basis to catch myself in the act and change that emotional and cognitive reaction. Behavior is very hard to change but I want my life back and nothing is going to get in my way especially these darn palps! I am back in the gym and getting out a lot more. I ask myself...would you go and do that if you didnt have anxiety and palps and if the answer is yes then I go and do it!! Thanks RLR I will keep learning and practicing and I will continue to hope for the best. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Chris on Jul 16th, 2011, 11:38am I don't want to go too off topic here so I'll do my best to keep it relevant to the thread. From a personal point of view, I'm not really so much afraid of my palpitations anymore. I understand what they are and I think that if they haven't got me after three years then they wont! However, unfortunately in the time between when I started getting them and when I realised finally that they were truly benign, I have developed an anxiety disorder. I get chest pain often and suffer from bad indigestion. This in turn makes me fear a cardiac event which starts a panic cycle. Of course, nothing ever happens, but sitting here typing this makes me feel very tense. My shoulders are always tense which can in turn cause chest muscle pain. My problem is not so much being afraid of the palpiations although I still get that surge of "what's that?!" when they happen, it's the deeper underlying fear of dying young which is my constant struggle. Whilst the palpitations are benign, I seem to have developed a wider ranging fear of simply having a heart problem, regardless of whether it is caused by palpitations or not. I'm 24 years old now and was previously active constantly with no trouble. Since 21 I have been struggling with the anxiety disorder and this is the most difficult thing for me. It's odd because I always look for factual evidence in all things in life and go with that. This is somehow different in my mind. My mind processes all the information differently and my fear of a young death takes precendent over all the evidence to the contrary. It is incredibly frustrating to have this disorder (which unlike depression I believe is still somewhat taboo in the UK at least) which prevents me from doing some of the things I love. I am unwilling to try medication for the simple reason that they only mask the symptoms. I am 24 years old and am unwilling to spend the rest of my life on medication. I sit here now, tense and nervous, wondering if something is wrong, and yet I know deep down nothing is wrong - all the evidence tells me nothing is wrong, my doctor tells me nothing is wrong, so does my cardiologist, as do my age and risk factors, and yet I continue to be unable to shake the belief. I hope that wasn't too off topic. I just wanted to suggest that whilst I do not "fear" the palpitations, they do continue to annoy and frustrate me, and losing my fear of the palpitations has not cured the anxiety disorder which having these palpitations originally has now caused. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Jul 17th, 2011, 6:12am Okay, welcome to the forum and I've read your concerns. I made a recent response to another new forum member, ohioman212, and you should seek out and read that response concerning the manifestation of certain fears and why they occur and remain persistent. Also I'd ask that any subsequent response be made on a new thread rather than continued within the context of this particular posting. This is so topics remain consistent and sequential to avoid any confusion. Best regards, Rutheford Rane, MD (ret.) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jul 25th, 2011, 9:22am RLR, how much do breathing patterns have to do with Palpitations and anxiety? Since I have started reading this thread I have been trying to analyze my thoughs and what I feel in life in general trying to see what I am like on a moment by moment basis to see if I can identify certain behaviors that lead to these Palpitations. One thing I notice is that my breathing is very erratic most of the time. I also feel dizzy a lot through the day as well. I have a very stressful job and I am on the phone a lot and I definitely dont breathe properly. I am an upper chest breather big time and I find myself not breathing a lot through out the day. Did I develop this erratic behavior because of anxiety. Is it reversible? Thanks for your input. Also I have reduced my fear level by half over these skips. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Jul 27th, 2011, 11:59am Maybe you could put this question as a separate thread? Id like the answer to that too. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Aug 22nd, 2011, 9:25pm RLR...I just wanted to let you know that for the first time in 5 years I have had a reduction in anxiety and in heart skips!!!! I can only believe that it was a result of my time spent in this specific thread and reading over your post in general. Before I came here I truly believed that I had a heart problem and was going to die. With that belief I continued to fuel the anxiety that lead to these skips. After reading, rereading and rereading this post and many others I was able to start changing the way I thought specifically about these skips every moment of the day. I worked hard and long to get my mind right with these. I have experienced every flop, skip and run that has been mentioned on here. I was agoraphobic for about 2 years and I had horrible panic attacks as well. But since I found this site and REALLY studied and believed what was said I started changing my though patterns, actions, changed my behavioral patterns etc and I finally have a true and significant reduction!!! What a feeling. This work was not easy at all but now that I am seeing a reduction it has been truly worth it. It has been absolutely the hardest thing I have ever done in my whole life. I still have daily skips....but they do not bother me and they are far less now. I would just like to truly thank you for showing me the way to getting my life back. You have no idea how much this site has helped me and I truly thought that I would live the rest of my life in horrible fear and depression. A life lived in fear is no life at all and I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your sympathy, understanding and knowledge. If I have any words of advice for the rest of you on here...it would be to read as many RLR post as you can and use what you learn from his post to constantly change your scary thought patterns. It is an exhausting job and takes a tremendous amount of effort and time but it is well worth it. Also I would recommend picking up a book from Claire Weekes called Hope and Help for your nerves. I have read and reread this book many times and she parallels exactly what RLR states...just not as medically specific. Thanks RLR, you are an incredible man!!!! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Oct 9th, 2011, 7:02pm Anyone looking for this thread? It belongs to all of you. I keep finding it drifting farther along into the shadows. It constitutes something very significant. It has been viewed more than any single thread on the forum, yet has the least amount of interaction by comparison. Doesn't that seem the least bit mysterious or curious? How could a thread such as this receive so much attention and yet so little actual involvement? Is there anything about such a premise that seems familiar in any way? So we continue . . . . . Best regards and Good Health |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Chris on Oct 13th, 2011, 4:46am Hi RLR, Hi all, From a personal point of view, I’ve found this thread a huge help. I do still get the odd dodgy beat every now and then, but they’re becoming fewer and fewer as time goes by. My health anxiety remains, and I’m currently fixated on stomach issues which scare me just as much due to the catastrophic nature of my thinking. Maybe it’s foolish, but I think I traced my anxiety back to a really horrible flight I had back from Italy to the UK in 2008. I’d had a long and good (but very tiring) holiday, and was eager to get home. It was an early flight and I was run down. The flight was horrible, turbulence all the way home. For the first time in my life I had a huge fear of impending doom. The plane was going to crash and I was going to die young, without fulfilling my ambitions or achieving anything in my life. I was incredibly scared. I guess it was a panic attack. After that, I started getting regular palpitations and general health anxiety. A headache was a tumour, stomach pain is cancer, palpitations is an impending heart attack. It was horrible and I was a complete mess for a few months afterwards. Fast forward a few years and I’m still here. I still have health anxiety because I’ve just been unable to shake the thought that I’m going to die young and I think this is where my fear lies. I’m not afraid of dying per se, I’m afraid of dying without achieving my life’s goals and ambitions – I want to travel, I want to enjoy my time here, and I want to have a happy and successful family, I want to get a degree and complete the education I was doing previously (I am currently in the process of doing this). For example this stomach pain at the moment – my Dr suggested it could be H Pylori bacteria and had given me a week’s course of Omeprazole, Metronidazole and Amoxycilin. I’ve finished the course of antibiotics, which gave me a few stomach issues, and because my stomach now has these antibiotic related symptoms, I fear that it’s more serious than first thought. That’s the way my mind works due to my anxiety disorder. In terms of getting over the palpitations, the first thing I did was to recognise that the odds of me, a 24 year old, having heart problems was incredibly slim at the outset. Further to that, I was very active and ate fairly well for my age. Further to that, I’d had the holter test and numerous check ups from the doctors which all said the same thing – benign ectopic beats. Further to that, RLR’s brilliant assurance on this website continued to reinforce the belief that maybe it was ME that was wrong, not the numerous qualified doctors and tried and tested methods of detection which had not turned anything sinister up! Every time I had a palpitation, I’d remember RLR’s words and just worry less about them than I had previously. This in turn led to a reduction in these events. Unfortunately because I have not yet tackled the underlying anxiety, something else in the form of these stomach issues simply replaced it, so it is important to tackle whatever it is which is causing these issues in your life. This is my aim now. I hope this is not too off topic - I'm just trying to relate to others my journey - which started in the discovery of this thread - and has led me to a major achievement on the way to beating this anxiety disorder once and for all. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by olewis8 on Oct 13th, 2011, 11:45pm I guess a thread without any objective is an attraction as people want to try their own creativity into finding subjects or topics which they feel could have a viral effect and see how long people are going to discuss the same. But it’s true that thread in such forms goes nowhere. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Dodger on Jan 9th, 2012, 1:14am Wow this thread got deep in the lists. I have not posted on this forum for awhile but I am having a rough night so I thought I would check in with everybody. I have really been working on the whole anxiety thing and it has been dong wonders. I have had a few small episodes of palps and chest pain. It is curently 4am and after having a horrible dream of being in the hospital, having a heart replaced of all things, I am actually doing well. I t is amazing what a thought process can do. Instead of freaking I chose to look at like "wow I survived a heart transplant and was dong great" instead of the other way around. I have been to the ER once with chest pain that would not go away and it turned out to be nothing, all tests came back good. I did have a palpitation event while there, which is the first time that anybody had been able to catch one on tape. So that was kind of like redemption for me that I was not going crazy. Doctors said everything looked good and let me go a couple of hours later. So firmly believing that if anything at all had looked off they would not let me go , I have been dong well. I know that I have never been in any danger now and things are going so much better. I am engaged and looking for a new career. My fiancee has been wonderfully supportive of my anxiety issues and I know she has been a big help in "calming my world down". I hope all of you are finding peace as well. Take care and I hope this will help somebody to. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Joni999 on Jan 9th, 2012, 6:48pm I also think it has to do with "understanding". We understand how to drive a car, put on the brakes, etc. When we need an oil change, we know where to go. When the battery dies, you replace it. I think for me, "understanding" is very important and the things going on with palpitations is very hard to understand and truly believe. I know the more I see here, the more comforted and less aroused I am by my symptoms. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on May 15th, 2012, 8:46am Hello everybody, hello RLR, I've not posted on these boards for a good time and I thought I'd drop by and see if I could give some reassurance and maybe some hope to the others within this thread and the forums. I'm sad to see this thread not being active, but I'm also part of the reason for that. So, I've not had any sustained anxiety or panic attacks for a long time now. I think I've come to a realisation regarding what has happened to me in life and I hope I can continue making progress with all things. Anyway, before April 1st 2011 I had a very angry, hateful, bitter and highly stressful family member to live with (evil brother). Since moving house on April 1st 2011, and moving away from that person, I gradually began to get better and better and now on May 15th 2012 I can confidently say that my panic/anxiety has subsided to near non-existence. I still get a bit worrisome at times and only occasionally have brief moments of doubt where my heart rate starts to raise, but never have sustained "attacks" like I used to. So anyway, the cause I believe was a combination of factors that all played a part in increasing the liklihood of anxiety and panic.
There was also I believe a compound effect taking place to worsen my circumstances further. My Crohn's disease seems to respond negatively to stress, which I was laden with at the time. This had the effect of stressing me out further and pushing me over the proverbial edge. Since moving away from my evil brother, I went from 130 lbs (early 2011 - at 5'11"), to 187 lbs at Christmas 2011, and I'm not even sure what my weight is at the current time because I'm no longer concerned with it, but I suspect I'm technically overweight now and wouldn't be surprised if I was still around the 180 - 190 mark. I'm fitter, stronger and healthier and I have lots of energy that I didn't have prior. I sleep well, I worry less and I generally feel a thousand times greater than I did. I don't fret over my resting heart rate anymore and sometimes notice it beating away nice and slow (I don't even count the rate) when I'm in bed at night. Contrast this to before when I would incessantly keep my fingers pressed to the palm of my hand to feel my pulse and would always count it at around 90-110. I also believe a big factor in my disorder was that I slept very poorly. I slept poorly because I would go to bed and leave music playing, leave Internet videos on, leave my computer screen on and make sure there was noise so I couldn't focus on my pounding heart rate. This in turn kept me fatigued all the time. I didn't even consider this to be the cause of my fatigue, but once I moved house and had a couple of nights without my computer, and consequently no distraction, I realised that sleeping in the dark with no noise or distraction is the only way to sleep. Sometimes I fall asleep with my computer left on and I always notice the next day that I'm more tired than I should be. I'm positive that having noise or lights on while you sleep ruins your bodys rhythm and leaves your nervous system fatigued, perhaps paving the way for the symptoms such as anxiety and panic. I remember that Dr. Rane always said that anxiety is a symptom and now I see why. Yes, it is a symptom, and one of a cause probably unknown to most people who suffer with it. I always hoped that if I overcame my problem I'd be able to give advice to others on the forum but I don't believe I can. I am now under the impression that anxiety, though common among us all, doesn't share a common cause. That is something which you must find yourself and must find a way of dealing with it once you discover what it is. Examine your life before and during anxiety; figure out what's changed from the time long before you had anxiety/panic to the time when you did. Hope this thread comes back to life, I may post more frequently now that I'm not dependant on these forums for help. Dr. Rane, I would also like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for being here and staying so dedicated to the forums and helping others with advice and kind words. I've no doubt I would have gotten a lot worse had I not found this forum, but I still hope that I would have found the end eventually. I don't think I will ever fully be free of the panic and anxiety that I suffered from; I believe there will always be times when insignificant matters cause me to panic, but now I'm at the stage where it just doesn't matter; unsustained worries will not affect my life any further. Thank you. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by martinpetersen on May 15th, 2012, 8:58am Really nice post, George, thanks a lot! And I fully agree with you on the subject of the importance of sleep. And the reasons many people don't sleep so well. I bless myself for having bought dark curtains a few years ago! I get bad sleep, though, quite easily if I eat too much too late, not to speak of course of coffee and alcohol at late hours. Best of luck with your future development! Martin |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 15th, 2012, 1:02pm This is a great post and I am not sure why it falls so far back in the forum either. I think the reason is that so many of us are past the panic tipping point to see and think clearly. What I mean is panic is a natural defense that the body has built in to protect itself. So the fear of these skipped beats has been identified by us and then labeled as a scary thing. Once that label gets placed it is extremely difficult for the brain to take that label off. I will give you a good example...I walk home from work often for lunch. One day a couple of weeks ago I walked by a bush and there was a snake there and it slithered in front of me and really startled me. I havent thought much about it and havent walked home since then but today I did. As I past this bush today there was some concern that was building inside me....I almost had to laugh because if this event happened once and my mind has logged this place as something to pay attention too..........well how many times have I told my mind to be afraid of the skipped heartbeats???? So working backwards from this is extremely difficult. Just my 2 cents... |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 15th, 2012, 1:31pm Ok here is an old post by RLR. I truly believe this to be the answer to our problems! We have to change our thought patterns and reactions to these skipped beats...no matter how often, or what form they come in. If we constantly stand fast and understand they are not going to harm our heart then they will eventually subside and even disappear! Easier said then done : ) ""Okay, just a comment to help further your exploration. It's important to take into account instinctual drives and archaic response sets which are common in all humans. This will help you to understand how and why the brain responds to fear stimulus. When you experience an event that invokes fear and danger, the brain records every possible nuance associated with the event in order to establish and maintain what could be referred to as an advance warning system of sorts. For instance, if you are walking down your neighborhood street and at a precise point a bad dog emerges from a hole in your neighbor's fence and threatens or frightens you, all of your sensations whether visual, tactile, auditory, olfactory and even gustatory if involved will be established as a pattern along with physical sequelae that accompanies the event, such as rapid pulse and respiration or other changes due to sympathetic nervous response. On any subsequent occasion that you walk down that same street, it will seem as though your defense system suddenly snaps on and just your increasing proximity to the hole in the fence will re-create the response set from the original event, causing you to prematurely avoid further approach or alternatively take a stand and confront the dog. Once you've experienced benign palpitations and they are unwittingly perceived to be a threat, any subsequent incidence will continue to produce similar reaction until such time that you transform your perception from irrational to logical. That is in part, the goal of this forum, to provide you with facts that can gradually restore the proper perspective and logical resolution to the circumstances. You are repeatedly frightened and your confidence challenged because of what you believe benign palpitations to represent. This pattern, however, is cause for you to explore the matter far more in depth because it most often exists in a similar form with respect to historical patterns and not merely the onset of benign palpitation events. In sum, take the content being developed on this thread and apply it to yourself from the standpoint of looking more in depth at the rationales being explored. How we communicate these perspectives outwardly is not how they are dealt with internally. The car accident example is merely to portray the relative risk that we rationalize on a daily basis, moreover our perceptions versus the actual potential at any given interval. Best regards and Good Health "" |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 15th, 2012, 10:02pm Since I posted my last post there has been over 50 views of this post...RLR is right. There is something holding people back from getting involved here and I am not quite sure what it is? If you are like me I go through big ups and downs with my life and these skipped beats. There are times where they dont bother me and other times where I wish they would just take me. Out of all the sites I have ever been on this is by far the most helpful. I am hoping we can get this thread rolling again because I would definitely like to live the rest of my life to the fullest. The last 6 years have been wasted on fear and anxiety and I want my life back! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on May 16th, 2012, 6:46am I understand what you say. I'm reading a lot of threads everyday just to ensure me its normal what I feel. The problem is that symptoms keep comming back or adding and that people in your environment who also had controls with doctors still had a heart attack or died not many months years later at a young age (38 - 45 zone) I allways experience a lot of pain on my chest..sometimes left , sometimes right. It allways includes myarm and shoulder left..and jaws sometimes. I had check ups (a couple) and the last was a year ago. For the last week I experience a reasonably hight heart rate while lying down reading a book or looking tv..(95-105) AND THIS LASTS FOR HOURS ..IT WONT GO DOWN. Adding the constant pain on my chest and arm and shoulder and the fact I dont exercise a lot due to my anxiety over my symptoms I sometimes think my heart is getting weaker and have to work harder. i also have years of palpitations and spasms. The problem is also I dont go to a doctor anymore cause they now think its allways stress or anxiety cause I am monitored for sometimes till a year ago. The only fear that remains is that WHAT if it is a problem now and nobody notices it anymore cause I wont go to a doc anymore hearing over and over again I worry too much (which I did). My symptoms arent normal. and allthough it could be stress or anxiety..being under stress for years cant be healthy either.. So yes I do believe everything I read here..but its not science. things happen and Being under anxiety stress or doubt cant be healthy. and even when people are checked out they still get heart attacks..or die.. and doc said not long before nothing is wrong. it will allways be difficult I quess |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 16th, 2012, 7:35am I have read a lot of information from Claire Weekes and between her and RLR I have found that I am able to hold down the fort so to speak on this tremendous fear I have self created. However just holding down the fort is not good enough for me. I want to "lose the fear". RLR talks about finding a root cause for the fear and Claire Weekes talks about Facing, Accepting, Floating and Letting time pass and says its not necessary to find a root cause to recovery from anxiety. So I am a little confused on how to proceed going forward! The days I use Claire Weekes methods without question are my better days until I have a bad skipped beat day and then for 24-48 hours it seems like all hope is lost, and that I fear that I dont just have benign palpitations and I am going to die and leave my 2 kids and pregnant wife behind......or my other fear is what if my anxiety gets so bad that I lose my job and am unable to work and make a living for my family. The cycle is endless and exhausting. Thats why I am going to use this forum as much as possible because this is not a life I want to live. I know I can do it with the input of others and RLR. I dont speak much to ANYONE about my heart or anxiety so having this outlet is my only true voice outside of my head. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Dodger on May 17th, 2012, 6:16am 28232D29253F243E38334A0 wrote:
I feel our post so much. I have been doing great lately with my anxiety and skipped beats, palpitations and such Then out of the blue this morning I get a run of flutters and skipped beats and it all starts again. I think I have calmed myself down , but I was like NO I WONT LET THIS CONTROL ME AGAIN!! Sometimes it just seems so overwhelming and I worry like you what if it happens at work? While driving? My key has been to try and just relax thru it or even ignore it and move on, go for a walk or just do something. I to think I should keep reading and posting instead of only turning to these forum and great people when I need comfort or reassurance. Hope you are having a better day. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 17th, 2012, 8:00am Dodger....the bad heart days are what sets me back big time. They are so hard to deal with. Since I posted my post at 11:35pm 2 nights ago this post has received 140 views!!! So we are not the only ones struggling with this. I am working hard and reading this entire post again and again to attain my end goal and that is to move forward with life with no fear of my benign palpitations! Below is a post by RLR and I truly believe we can all overcome this!! "Now we're beginning to head in the right direction. This thread doesn't require my guidance in any real sense because the revelations which you will discover through direct participation will be entirely derived by those who engage it on their own terms. In other words, how you react to this thread will speak volumes and you should pay very careful attention to this element. If you are one of the some 5400 or so persons who merely read the thread but cannot become involved, then you need to ask yourself why. If you participate but can't seem to pierce the veil which leads to an area being avoided, then you need to ask yourself why. If you don't know why, post the question and seek responses from those who have stepped across that barrier. You must draw the collective issues out into the open within the safety of anonymity and become unafraid that doing so will cause some loss of control over the circumstances. Realize that this fear is what causes many persons to develop significant anxiety, for they exert avoidance of issues which generate a perceived threat to their well-being in some regard. The result for many is a form of indentured servitude where control over daily regimen is induced, often accompanied by rituals in many forms necessary to keep life in balance. An unidentifiable unrest seems to prevail and it is this lack of identity or definition which produces the overwhelming fear. It becomes a life with near total energy divested in prevention of circumstances that are unreal and imaginary, leaving little to no energy devoted to one's aspirations, goals and sense of accomplishment. You have the same capacity as you've always held, but it is being depleted daily by attempting to exert control over factors that are irrational in form and only exist in the realm of unwarranted speculation. You must expose the barriers which rob you of the energy necessary to take back your lives. You must challenge their existence and demand proof of any speculative consequence. You must come to realize that the origin of your entire difficulty is based in your patterns of life. Fears must be fed to remain alive. It is this compelling drive which imprisons persons with anxiety. Remember that anxiety is not a disorder at all, but rather simply a state of mind. If it becomes habitual, it produces a constant state of unrest. People with anxiety find themselves consistently being drawn to elements which strengthen and intensify their fears. If they experience a palpitation event, they most often feel compelled to peer into the farthest range of tragic outcome, to read the ending of the book before understanding its content, to try their best to predict the outcome no matter how far-fetched, subsequently developing apprehension of such an outcome as though it were somehow magically made real by their unregulated thought process. All of this and more is what you must question and seek to determine within yourselves. With the help of others experiencing similar difficulties, you must use this thread to draw forth and explore these expressions and put them to the challenge. You must avoid looking externally for guidance or reassurance and realize that it has been within you all along. You've simply lost faith in your abilities in this regard. If you want to truly be free of difficulty, including that associated with benign palpitations, then you must step up to the plate among one another and take the journey together. I'll be around and I'll certainly be examining the passages generated on the thread, but I can't take you across the threshold. You must do this yourself. I can tell you that what awaits you is what you've thought to be lost and irretrievable. Best regards and Good Health" |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 17th, 2012, 11:05am RLR tells us that we need to start looking at this thing at a Macro level and work our way in. He says anxiety is basically just a bad habit that has been developed. One thing I notice and am really trying to cut down on is an acute awareness of myself. Every tingle, shake, missed beat, vision change etc. This I feel is exhausting me, so in order to change it I am not trying to ignore it but acknowledge the sensation and then move on rather than focusing in on it and trying to determine if it is dangerous or not! Obviously it is not because I believe a large part of us experience very similar things on a regular basis and we all are still alive : ) A person without anxiety hardly ever notices these things and even if they do they pay no attention to them. I think moving forward this is a big area where I need to change my habit! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Dodger on May 17th, 2012, 2:14pm That is exactly what I had to do. BigCountry. I literally started yelling at myself in my head. I would start to panic and I would just shout at myself to stop it and that I was being an ass. My doctor told me about the Vagal (sp) maneuvers to help stop the palpitations and lo and behold they work, at least for me. So now when they start instead of dwelling on them I try to do something as soon as I feel them start. I go for a walk, read a book, just try to do some activity to take my mind off of them. For me anyway it really seems to help. Today was the first time since January that I have felt them at all. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 17th, 2012, 7:41pm I am definitely trying to bring to the forefront all of these habitual behaviors I have created that have lead me down this path. I have skipped beats all day everyday and I have really grown ok with them...it is when they suddenly change or increase in frequency or intensity that they throw me for a loop..... : ) even though I have read from RLR a million times that no matter the frequency or intensity they will never do me harm! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 21st, 2012, 7:38am Ok since my last post I have tried to really focus on my habits, thoughts, feelings etc and I noticed one main thing is that when I am at home and have my skipped beats they are bearable and I can cope with them, however when I am out and have them they feel much more in tense and I feel myself trying to listen in and make sure they dont get worse. This is silly because I actually believe that if they do get worse there is something I could do about it??? Do I really think I can control my heart? This is what I think its all about for me....I think I can control my heart and avert something horribly if I just maintain constant vigilance over it at all times. This is where I have to come to an understanding with myself and my skips as this is absolutely impossible and not necessary because they are benign.....even if they werent benign my efforts would be fruitless. So I will be working on this hard this week. Thanks |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 21st, 2012, 8:03am Also I have read a over much of this post over the weekend and one thing that keeps sticking out to me is from RLR and he says we need to stop focusing and being afraid of the physical aspects of what is happening and we need to venture toward what is really causing these. I will tell you that I had a brother die in the middle of the night from heart problems. I was 16 and he was 18. Many years later my oldest sister started having heart problems and now she, my mom and my 2nd of 3 sisters all have defibrillators in there chest. They put me through all of the same tests and said my heart was fine. During all of this I had just changed my job, my wife was pregnant with our first child and I bought my first home. One day during this time my heart skipped a beat! It scared the hell out of me and I couldnt help but think they missed something and that I would die. So I can tell you my fear is definitely based around all of this information. Now I am dealing with the physical aspects and for some reason no matter how many times I read the information that RLR provides to me, if I have a bad heart day, it all goes out the window! So to be blatantly honest with myself and everyone here I am afraid to die. I am afraid they missed something and that my heart will do whatever it is that my brothers heart did or what my mom and 2 sisters heart did. As hard as I try to mentally get over this I have been unsuccessful and struggle on a daily basis! This is why I am determined to work with everyone here and be a voice and get to the endgame and enjoy the rest of my life. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on May 21st, 2012, 11:21pm hi Big Country But in your case your fear has become reality. Your brother died of heart problems and in your close related family are heart problems known. So I think in your case doctors should never underestimate your complaints. There is a real possibility you and your family have more heart problems in the line of the family (DNA / Gen?) than other families. Although I know RLR is right, and that in most cases palpitations probably mean nothing. you never can discount symptoms. espescially when this is known in your family. I think its normal you get an examination every once or twice a year just to check you. in my opinion that would be normal. Its my believe that we pay health insurance.. and where I live in Europe we pay for health care. read the word. HEALTH CARE. the problem is, there is no focus on keeping people healthy, so prevention checks, but only when people become real ill or having problems ..care kicks in.. (at least in the Netherlands this is, and we have a good health care ). people do die , also after just being examined. People who are clean of cancer 2 months ago, are full of it two month later and with no chance of recovery. I start to accept that these things happen and medicine and doctors only can do what they can do. but there arent miracle workers either. they make mistakes, they cant see and know everything and in the end they are sometimes just as powerless in situations. thats life i quess. I totally agree with you that it is a fear of dying, being mortal, that your best time is already gone/up. I really dont know if my symptoms in the end arent a real problem or not. probably not, but it is a real symptom which occurs cause something in my BODY is not balanced. or deficit or not working as it used to do. In my believe that should be addressed too. best of health to you my friend |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 22nd, 2012, 7:30am Richie, I have been through countless test etc because my mom is a worry wart and I have had an MRI of the heart, numerous treadmill test, ekgs, 2 week holters, and other various test over the course of several years. I am in the medical industry so I do not hold the negative outlook that you do on results etc. What I do know is that I have been told that my heart is fine by some of the best heart/cardiologist docs in the country. So in order to move forward with my life I have to believe what they say. I have anxiety. I have it bad and have had it for 7 years. RLR says anxiety is a habit and I definitely agree with him. So in order to proceed on with my life where anxiety isnt the MASSIVE part that it is I am using this forum to study, understand, and map a game plan to recovery. Anxiety can and does cause physical symptoms even to the heart and I, along with everyone else on here are living proof of this fact. You said in your post the following "but it is a real symptom which occurs cause something in my BODY is not balanced. or deficit or not working as it used to do. In my believe that should be addressed too. " and this is a true statement...the body is not balanced because we have unbalanced it with a bad habit and that habit is thinking that something that isnt going to harm us is going to kill us. Once this problem is resolved mentally in us the problems will lesson or be removed. So my plan moving forward is to concentrate on my thinking patterns and break this bad habit. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 22nd, 2012, 9:20am My Plan of Attack-- RLR said " Once you've experienced benign palpitations and they are unwittingly perceived to be a threat, any subsequent incidence will continue to produce similar reaction until such time that you transform your perception from irrational to logical. That is in part, the goal of this forum, to provide you with facts that can gradually restore the proper perspective and logical resolution to the circumstances. You are repeatedly frightened and your confidence challenged because of what you believe benign palpitations to represent." So I will be working hard to change the thought process not only on my skipped beats as they happen but on the rest of the somatic systems that the skipped beats have caused due to the stress involved. It will not be easy and I will update you every step of the way. I will be challenging my self talk with logic provided by RLR and truly believe this is the way out and back to the life I once had. Example--skipped beat....Thought--these are not dangerous, they are caused by the over stimulation of the vagus nerve, they have never harmed you in the 7 years you have had them because they do not affect the hearts performance. You exercise daily and other than the anxiety they cause you due to your thought process, they are of no consequence. Repeat : ) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on May 22nd, 2012, 9:22am Hi bigcountry. (why do I start to sing the song "look away"in my head all the time I read your username) ;-) I'm happy for you, that your heart seems to be fine. Its absolutely true that you have to trust this. ( although I do believe in your case doctors should always be careful). Your comment about my body quote is a good one. I know I should trust my body more. and that the disbalance you think of could very well come from me worrying to much, adrenaline, cortisol, and so on. I quess I just cant believe or accept that my anxiety and chronic hyperventilation causes all my symptoms When my tsh is 3,8 and that is a bit high, I think.. see its my thyroid working to slow. if my calcium is on the highest point of what is normal 2.59 mmol than I think i have an underlying serious problem and that the bloodtest indicate something IS wrong. but my doc says "no" dont worry. then I start to look on google and the net what these numbers mean and I do see that these arent good. Its like you said. I dont want to die cause my doc things I'ám anxious and therefore do not need examination anymore, cause my heart was ok the last time , or nothing is wrong thats my puzzle and problem. kind regards ! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 22nd, 2012, 9:36am Richie...just from experience you should never look on Google. You are not a doctor and do not have the training to understand what is being said and what context it is said in. RLR mentions this a lot in most of his post. I am a medical device salesmen and have been for 10 years. I have been in 1000's of surgical cases and even with every thing I know I know absolutely nothing when it comes to diagnosing patients. Please believe me when I say that anxiety can absolutely cause these symptoms and does to millions of people! I have studied for years on anxiety and it makes absolute sense. You are having a thought, a scary thought, over and over and over again and your body is just reacting appropriately. Lets say you are watching a scary movie, you know its a movie yet your heart races, your hands clam up etc. When the movie is over you go on with your life! Unfortunately we never let our movie be over....we constantly believe that these are going to harm us and as long as we believe that our body will react! trust me...I know its much harder than that....but its the truth. That is why I am here. I want to get past this and get my life back and I will not give up until that happens. Thanks for being involved. Hopefully we both can overcome this and help each other along the way! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on May 22nd, 2012, 9:54am Bigcountry I really do understand how this all works (anxiety , and the nervous system (parasympatic). adrenaline no adrenaline, cortisol and the programmation of fight and flight and arousal (mind body) Still .. well you know what i'm going to say.. i keep having my doubts :-) I really hope you , and all the others here coping with these kind of problems will get their life back on track. When i'm really convinced its my (sole and only)cause of all my symptoms too, I really wish I beat this anxiety too and the effects it has on my body. I'm not there yet. I'm not that strong maybe.. although less worrying altogether wouldnt hurt me whatever the cause. for now.. many thx and kind regards !! and reclaim your life so you start to remember yourself again when you could run, swim, sport, live life , without constantly thinking if you survive.. ( i know I want to get back to that state..I sometimes dont recognize myself and that feeling anymore) p.s. english is not my native language so forgive me type -o's and some strange sentences or semantics |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by martinpetersen on May 22nd, 2012, 11:39am Just came to think while reading your lasts post that maybe it's someway healing to look at the whole thing as a vicious circle. From all I've read here, by RLR and others, it's a fact that several factors contribute to "benign palpitations". 1. It's a fact that the heart now and then, maybe often for some people, make an extra beat (which might feel like it skips a beat). It's also a fact that the heart sometimes beat harder. And it's a fact that some people do FEEL this. And do I have to mention that many people experience these "out-of-rythm-beats" as a very unpleasant phenomenon? 2. It's a fact that anxiety in some way - in cooperation with the autonomous nervous system/the vagus nerve - can contribute to palpitations, and probably often does. It seems that a period of your life with many stress elements originating from job, love scene, economy - you name it - creates more impulses in your autonomous nervous system. Maybe (my interpretation) makes it more "sensible". 3. It's a fact that physical impact (sleeping on the left side, eating too much, bending over, maybe lying down with an all too full stomach also - just like stress - can generate "false signals" that reach the heart. 4. And as for the physical contributors the chemical ones: Alcohol, cafein, maybe nicotine and probably many drugs. 5. Finally it's unfortunately very difficult to diagnose which one (or two, or three) of these factors is the culprit. And therefore the way forward is: a. Get your heart checked. b. If okay, try to work on the other possible palp-generators, knowing that it might take quite som time, accept the fact that they are unpleasant - AND that the palps (so says RLR) never turn into anything worse or are dangerous or signs of beginning heartdiseases. Okay - it turned long ... But this is what I think about this now. Best of luck to all. Martin |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 23rd, 2012, 11:10am Just an update!! I have been practicing what I preach so to say. As you know I am in Medical Device and yesterday I had a meeting with a surgeon and then took him to dinner. I would usually be a mess all day and my heart would be really acting up especially during the meeting and dinner. In the past I would get tense and really increase all my symptoms including skipped beats. Yesterday I chose to go down a different road. Everytime I would feel nervous, a skipped beat, a run of skipped beats, dizzy etc etc....instead of reacting with fear and letting my mind race I simple made the following statement....Has this happened before? Yes...What happened then? I was really scared, made the symptoms worse, did not enjoy myself, thought I was going to die etc etc...Did any of those thoughts come true?...NO...Have any of those thoughts EVER come true in the 1000's upon 1000's of times this has happened to you? NO!! Then I would stop the conversation in my head and join life again. How did it work. It worked great! Did I still have the symptoms...absolutely...but I was able to enjoy my evening and felt like my life wasnt in danger. I will continue to process this and make changes as necessary. I could die in a car wreck tomorrow, and I have spent the last 7 years in my own private hell about a benign condition with my heart! Well as RLR says "you have to stand up and take your life back, what other choice do you have!" So that is what I have decided to do. I know there will be ups and downs but I am ready for the challenge and excited to fight hard and get my life back! Thanks to everyone for there help and I will continue to be very active in this thread. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on May 23rd, 2012, 10:46pm hi Bigcountry sounds good. the thing I dont understand is why the symptoms dont go away if you are not anxious? I mean if it occurs due to anxiety and so on, and you dont react with anxiety to your symptoms. Why do the symptoms stay? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 24th, 2012, 7:13am Richie, I am having a reduction in symptoms just in the 3 days since I have changed my attitude. Are they still there, yes, do they still affect me, of course, I would be lying if I said no, but whats different is I TRULY believe in what RLR has taught me. And with that belief I am trying to change a very nasty habit of fear! This is the hardest part for all of us in that just because for 5 seconds you change your attitude does not mean your nerves will calm immediately. First your mind and thought patterns need time to change and Habits are very hard to break. Just cause you start exercising today, does that mean you are at your goal weight tomorrow. I have altered my fight or flight to strike with intensity at every little feeling because I have been telling myself I MIGHT DIE every second of every day for 7 years!!! Think of your nerves as a tuning fork, every time you are afraid you hit the tuning fork and it vibrates, be afraid again and it vibrates again and this continues.....just because I stop hitting the fork for a second doesnt mean it stops vibrating. Another example....you break your leg and you want it to heal....you dont sit around all day and hit it with a hammer. Well if I want my nerves to heal I need to let them heal....the only way I can do this is to take every symptom I have and truly believe it is anxiety caused. How can I do this without question, its not easy, but I am trusting that all the doctors I have seen are right and I do! So this is, I believe, the hardest part for all of us....and that is we try and step over that line of trust and when the symptoms dont disappear wight away we go back to being afraid and back to hitting the tuning fork. I am now trying to step past that place that I have created in an effort to make myself feel safe, which in actuality is causing my symptoms, and I need to go where I am very uncomfortable and experience life again without fear and with the realization that I am creating my own hell! Its not going to happen right away! That is my plan and I cant turn back because I dont want to live like this anymore. So I am willing to jump over my safety wall, even though I am scared to death, and see what is on the other side. I hope this helps : ) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on May 24th, 2012, 10:18am great post bigcountry !! thx..and keep up your faith in yourself and your body !! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Dodger on May 27th, 2012, 10:27am Big COuntry, Great post. I feel your pain. I think for me I just reached a point where I was just tired of living in fear. I have had multiple versions of all sorts of tests run and every Doctor has said I am fine. So the all of these symptoms and pains and fluttering and skipped beats were still there. I lived in constant fear that I was about to drop dead at any moment. I just could not live lie that any more. I just got re married a month ago and I want to live, not hide in fear that everything is me about to have a heart attack and drop dead. Some how we call all find peace from this and move on with our lives. I hope the best for you and will be here if you need to talk. Best wishes |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 27th, 2012, 6:51pm Dodger...good to hear from you. I have definitely changed my approach 100% to this whole thing...focusing mainly on my habit of fear. Its amazing how entrenched this habit is on every level and how many safety behaviors and patterns I have created over the years. So it is exhausting and time consuming but I am challenging my beliefs and jumping way out of my comfort zone and not reacting in fear to these skipped beats or any of my other anxiety symptoms. I will keep you posted. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Chris on May 29th, 2012, 1:46am I think for me the worry about my heart stemmed from deeper issues previously. I've always felt really uncomfortable about things I don't understand or can't comprehend or imagine. As I grew up through my teenage years, I became more and more aware of my own mortality. I moved away from my home town, plunged myself into a full time job. Within the space of six months I'd gone from having the freedom to do what I want, when I want, to being an adult, with adult responsibilities, money concerns, paying my way, having to go in to work every day. I suppose this may not sound like much, but to me it was a shock to the system because I'd never experienced it before. It's that realisation that my life would never be the same again which I believe to be the root cause of my palpitations. For me these days, my palps have reduced a huge amount. However, my general anxiety/health anxiety has shot up. I've had the palps for about four years now, so I kinda feel that if they were going to take me, they'd have done it by now. However, when I was in the midst of my panic disorder about these things, I began to worry about other things too. I hear of people around my age getting terrible illnesses and disease. And my mind says "yeah I think I'm healthy, but that could have been me, or could be me tomorrow"... I'm sure many of you can relate to that kind of thinking. It's exactly the same when I go on a plane. I know for a fact planes are the safest form of transport but I hate it, because a) I can't control it and b) I always think "what if" it's me who's in that one fatal accident. It could just as easily be me than anyone else after all. I've heard RLR talk about this before - unfortunately we live in a world where virtually anything is possible. The trouble is that it's true really, but until I figure out a way to deal with risk, I will always struggle. Risk is the key here for me. I can't handle the risks of life at the moment. It's a risk that any of us could go at any time and that's just the reality of life. I need to come to terms with that and then I'll be able to move on. I believe personally it is also a fear of death - again, the unknown and the uncontrollable. The one thing in life that is guaranteed for all of us. I'll end it with two quotes from Viktor Frankl's Man's Search For Meaning: "Even more people today have the means to live but no meaning to live for." "Everything can be taken from a man or a woman but one thing: the last of human freedoms to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 29th, 2012, 8:45am RLR says this(see below)....so what are we missing. I am reading through this post many times and I dont really feel like we are getting anywhere....I am trying new things that I think might work but how will I know if I am doing the right things.....we all know it takes time but if I am doing the wrong thing then I would like to know I am doing the wrong thing....... """"This thread constitutes the most critical juncture of this forum and yet it receives the least actual interaction. What I'm suggesting here is that you devote time to discovering why. I certainly know the answer, but this thread is not about my guidance or participation. This is entirely your thread and what has taken place here thus far is the very looking glass that each of you must examine, for it holds within its parameters a very special key. If you seek change, if you seek your life back, free from the confines imposed by the physical impositions of anxiety such as benign heart palpitations, then this thread will eventually take you to that place where I cannot lead you. In order to succeed, you will only be able to proceed using strategies that are presently unfamiliar or uncomfortable to you. Think of this thread as a continuum, on one end the cognitive strategies which have culminated into the predicament you now face and on the other end is the undiscovered pathway to getting your life back. This thread is where you lead the way, where you must work to find the answers which will possess the measure of actual change. It represents the doorway through which people with anxiety of the type being demonstrated in the members and guests to the forum resist with great apprehension. It's the very reason that this thread has resulted in 5,544 viewers and only 185 responses of a very peculiar nature. If you were actually making progress in the true sense, this thread would appear at the top of the forum daily. At present, members or guests randomly go in search of it to bring it current once again. """" |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on May 29th, 2012, 3:39pm Okay, there is a very powerful message being flirted with here and it's headed in the right direction. It's the one place, however, that I can't take you. You must do it for yourselves. You must work at this until it yields the necessary insight. Best regards, Rutheford Rane, MD (ret.) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 30th, 2012, 8:17am RLR I know you cant take us there but please let me know if I am close because I would hate to be leading all of us away from this.... I have been really concentrating on behavior and habit lately. Yesterday I had a horrible anxiety day....but I still worked, I still went to the gym, and I still went to my weekly poker game last night. The difference this time over days like this in the past is that I just said..."well I guess it is just a high anxiety day" and tried my hardest not to REACT to any of the symptoms I was having. It was hard but I didnt care. I was telling myself that I have learned all of these horrible habits and behaviors so now I need to unlearn them. When I talk about habits and behaviors I am talking about everything that I do that would feed anxiety...breathing, tensing, thoughts, safety behaviors, trying to ignore etc etc etc etc....it was exhausting but IT IS AMAZING HOW MANY OF THEM I NOTICED IN JUST 1 DAY!!! It was overwhelming how many things I do everyday to try and control something that is not in my control. If you really dig down into your thoughts, behaviors, habits and actions you will see just how different we act now as compared to that person we all used to be. So I am thinking to get back to that person I used to be I have to lose all of these behaviors and habits!!!!! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on May 30th, 2012, 9:13am its great that you feel up for this challenge to re program yourself ! I hope it'll work for you in the end!! What I do notice myself is the moment I try to relax and let go my anxiety then something else physically comes up or my symptoms seem to get worse and worse . Finally there is a level that I will respond to it. So I know how hard it is. Furthermore (i also wrote this elsewhere on this forum) there keep poping up new problems or possibilities for my symptoms. My Thyroid seems suspicious in my opinion ( serum levels) so, I keep occupied with my body, cause I still feel something else is causing this. I know anxiety and arousal is an issue for me. But just when I start to get convinced of that some new things pop up and could well be what causing my symptoms. Did you know that many many people with anxiety and depression in the end turn out to be thyroid problems? Now that my levels are questionable I start to wonder and i'm back at the beginning. i absolutely believe that arousal and anxiety can cause symptoms and sustain these symptoms. But where did it start? What if there is a problem inside my body what causes the anxiety? Only when everything else is ruled out you can work mentally imo The problem I face is that when you get the stigma of hypocondriac or anxiety then suddenly all facts found in your serum which seems suspiscious are still put aside . I really like to know if a TSH of 4.0 ( in the normal range 0.4 - 4.0/4.3) is not too high and t4 of 14.2 (11-25) do give a case of a slow thyroid (or illness). my doc says ..I worry too much, but thyroid problems are often underestimated. the internet is full of specialists who agree with this. So its not easy for us people who indeed tend to worry too much but have sometimes normal reasons to question things. What I want to say is.. keep up your good work..I know I want to be in your slipstream, but i'm not convinced that I can beat this only mentally not when there are too many fingers pointing to other directions. I really could use the expertise of people about my thyroid levels. symptoms: Painful chest skipped heart beats spasms twitching muscles Painful muscles tired shortness of breath inability to sport due to feeling of heart troubles feeling of tingling and tickling arms hands legs feet splinterhemorraghes nails and some whitening on my nails which i never saw on other healthy friends and family I do have bloodgas values in the past that matches chronic hyperventilation. But now I start to think its my thyroid or something influencing my thyroid |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on May 30th, 2012, 4:33pm "If you really dig down into your thoughts, behaviors, habits and actions you will see just how different we act now as compared to that person we all used to be. So I am thinking to get back to that person I used to be I have to lose all of these behaviors and habits!!!!!" It is entirely for you to tell me whether you are "taking this in the right direction." I simply made an observation at this point in the discussion. When you develop the necessary insight, the solution will become clear that in this thread I await the answer, not a question. Best regards, Rutheford Rane, MD (ret.) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Andrea on May 30th, 2012, 10:03pm I'm currently in training for a new job. Just for a little bit of context, I'm a social worker. Anyway, today we discussed at length the idea of safety and risk. The main point of the discussion being that safety is a subset of risk and that you can have risk without safety issues but no safety issues without risk. It seemed confusing to me at first but I thought about driving a car. There is risk in driving a car but we all put safety measures in place before we drive. We buckle our seatbelts, we drive cars with airbags, (some of us) drive carefully. These things reassure us and reduce risk and increase safety. It's kind of the same with the anxiety we experience. We feel that we are at risk for something, but we lack the protective factors to tell us that we are in fact completely safe. I feel like working on the protective factors - in this case, education regarding the harmless nature of our palpitations, methods on how to reduce stress, anxiety, triggers etc. - are the keys to the kingdom. Life is full of risks and our reaction to those risks is what guides us. I think it's all about knowing how to appropriately respond to what our body perceives as a threat. Heart palpitations are certainly jarring and upsetting at times, but my reaction to them lessens that fight-or-flight feeling I get. It took a very long time for me to reach this point, though. I don't know. It makes sense to me. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 31st, 2012, 9:03am RLR...I think I have found the solution....its in my statement you copied in your post. I truly believe this to be the way out and I am working hard on observing these horrible thoughts, behaviors and habits that I have developed that have lead me to where I am today. Instead of being afraid when I feel any of the symptoms I am trying to stop the cascade before it even begins and use logic and things that are real to adjust this habit! It is working so far and now that I can see myself and reactions from almost an outside view...I see what I am doing to myself now that I did not do in the past. If I can stop this cascade and reteach myself the right ways then I will have the old me back and that is my ultimate goal!!!!! I will keep you posted!!! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Chris on May 31st, 2012, 12:59pm I really want to stay involved here but I'm not sure what to say. From my point of view I sometimes have a decent day with low anxiety, and then something will trigger and I'll have an awful day and it'll remain like that for a number of days before slowly improving again. I want to be able to harness that good feeling and try to keep it in place. i don't know how to do that. I've had this anxiety for so long now that I feel kinda lost. I don't remember how I used to feel, I just know it was better than I feel now. I want to be able to go out without feeling uncomfortable, or sick, or having palpitations, or headaches, or feeling achy or worried. I'm tired of wasting my life. For me as I mentioned before it's all a question of risk. I don't feel suitably prepared for the risks in life. I used to be absolutely fine, I never thought about it. Now, that's all I can think of. Palpitations started it off. Now it's palpitations, cancer, other dreadfull illnesses. The what if's start. And then they get out of control and I dig myself a big hole and jump straight in. I like to use the analogy of a slippery slope. I struggle up it, feeling better, then something will trigger it. I'll slip, and fall back down to the start. Recently, I have been managing to get higher up the slope. I was feeling good. And then an issue which came up on Monday plunged me about as low as I've ever been and I feel I have to start it all again. One minute you feel great. That evening you can practically feel yourself slipping down to the bottom again. I know what I need to do. I need to think logically. As RLR says so often, I need to use logic to break the cycle of fear. I need to use facts and figures to understand the risk and put it into sensible context. I need to learn that nothing in life is guaranteed. But more than anything, that is what I'm struggling with. There can be no absolute guarantees. I always say what if... what if I'm next... what if I'm the unlucky one. I guess it's possible. That's what I can't bring myself round to facing. I don't think this post has been particularly helpful so my apologies. I just wanted to get involved a bit. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 31st, 2012, 1:16pm Chris I think this is exactly what this post is for...it is to help you work through the thoughts you just stated in your post. Anxiety really is a slippery slope but I have read about so many people that have recovered from it that I know its possible and I want to be one of those people. You stated that you get close to the top and then slip again....I do the same things. I think it is due to the habit of anxiety. If when you start to slip when you are close to the top,,,if you just say ok I am going to let myself fall this time and not struggle that I am falling then that is when I truly believe the turning point will be! You are in a habit....the habit effects everything you do all the way through to your core, if you can peel it back layer by layer, eventually the old you will start to surface. Dont struggle on the bad days. I KNOW IT IS SO HARD....but I just had a horrible day a couple of days ago and for the first time ever I did not struggle....it was not easy or fun to say the least, but I still worked, I still went to the gym, I still went to my weekly poker game that evening. The difference this time was I gave in, I did not fill my head with thoughts of doom, I did not tense my whole body at every symptom I hate, and at the end of the day I was still alive and kicking : ) I hope this helped a little. What I am doing now is when I have a jolt of anxiety, or anxiety symptoms I stop before I react, I remind myself that it has happened 1000+ times and I am still here so stop reacting and let it do its worst but this time have no reaction. Its working....I am not as scared to let the feelings just wash over me because they HAVE NEVER DONE ANYTHING HARMFUL TO ME BEFORE. I have been bluffing myself this whole time. Am I better, not even close : ) But I am feeling a little better and want to keep the momentum going in that direction!!! Hang in there and just commit to this path and see where it takes you. I have never committed 100% to this path ever, and now I will...I will either die (not likely according to RLR and a ton of other docs : ) ) or I will get to have my life back!!!!! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Dodger on Jun 1st, 2012, 4:07am Country, You make some real valid points and observations. Its amazing what the mind can do for us and to us if we let it. Lately I have not been struggling with the palpitations but with what feels like to me skipped beats. Its this new thing that has me struggling again. However I feel that I am in a better place than I was before. I know that in the past I would be a shell of anxiety and panic thinking that m heart would just stop and not start again. Now I still feel this way but I keep trying to go about my day. I hope that this pattern will strengthen my resolve to continue to live my life and not live in fear of these issues or to be controlled by them. I hope this make sense and that it helps some one else along the way to. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jun 1st, 2012, 10:20am Dodger, I am so glad you are staying involved with this process! I wish more people would join in. I have been just allowing these feelings to wash over me 100% of the way for the last couple of days...its been very scary and very interesting at the same time. I let my heart beat whatever way it wants to....when it does I say " do you really think you can control your heart and what it is going to do" and then I laugh and keep going. Its a funny question and really comes down to our overall need to control everything! If we let go of this need to control and the fear, I think we are going to be surprised of how NOT RELAXED we really are on a minute by minute basis! I read some where about the "Anxiety Trick" we feel discomfort and are tricking our minds in to thinking it is danger. When asked why if we know that this is a trick do we continue to do it....the answer was that we have made ourselves believe that because we panicked, ran away, diverted our attention, and all of the other safety behaviors, thoughts and actions that we stopped what ever horrible thing from happening. BUT WE REALLY ARENT STOPPING ANYTHING FROM HAPPENING BECAUSE NOTHING IS WRONG. That is what I am working on and trying to prove to myself that absolutely nothing is wrong and saying to myself...do whatever you want, I am not scared anymore. Its a crazy concept but one I truly believe to be the answer and will keep you posted. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Chris on Jun 1st, 2012, 12:26pm I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head with the control aspect. I've got a slightly clearer head now than when I last posted, so hopefully this post is a little more coherent! For me, it's all about two things: control and risk. When I was growing up, everything was fine. My mum was in control and I was young and invincible. I didn't feel any risk. I did things then that I wouldn't dream of doing now, and I didn't think twice about it. Now, life seems so much more complicated. We're bombarded with sensationalist news stories, adverts, health this, health that. Everything in the world seems to cause disease and distress. People like us are sensative to that sort of thing, and it keeps us in this cycle. I don't ever recall being like this previously, but with my anxiety I like to be in control of everything. I believe that the reason for this is that my mind believes there is a risk to my life at every turn, and therefore it attempts to protect me at all costs. This means that I have to be in control of everything, so that nothing can go wrong, and therefore I remain protected. It's the same from every day life, triple checking before crossing the road, to every twitch or ailment which I seek medical help for immediately, just in case. I try to control everything, to keep myself safe. The reality is I was safe all along. I just didn't see it, or at least the bit that did see it was bombarded by the anxious bit with "what ifs". It's the same with risk. I can't handle risk because I believe that I will be the unlucky one. I won't fly because I am out of control, and I believe I will be the unlucky one who crashes. I hear of a million to one story, and I truly worry that I will be that one. I guess someone has to be that one, why not me? This is the gist of my thinking in these situations. The trouble is, that whilst the risks are tiny, it is a good question in my mind. There's no way to say I will be 100% safe for the next 80 odd years. It's impossible. So life will always have an element of risk, and this is what I need to deal with in order to move on with my life. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jun 4th, 2012, 1:08pm This is a crazy game....I had a very busy weekend with family in town from Africa visiting, my brother in law moved there to do private security. Any way they are staying with us so we have been non stop busy with get togethers etc and needless to say it has been very stressful. This whole accepting is a very tricky game....but guess what, even though the horrible anxiety was there, I did everything there was to do. Had conversations with many people, went to bbq's, golfing etc etc. I didnt die, I had lots of skipped beats, felt weird, dizzy, distant but I pushed through. It was extremely difficult and exhausting but I am made it. I think I have a long road to plow to get myself back to normal but I feel like I am moving forward! You definitely have to be committed and expect some very bad days but in those days realize you can still do everything, you just may have anxiety. I know that sucks but if this is the road I must travel, well then buckle up!!! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jun 4th, 2012, 4:08pm Hi all, Thought I'd chime in here with my thoughts on the whole thread. You guys seem to be uncovering a few interesting facts about yourselves and I can't really comment on those much. Not sure what to talk about because I haven't had much of a problem for a good time now and I still don't "know" what I've done apart from the few things I talked about in my previous post in here approx. 1 week ago. So anyway, I saw you guys discussing fear and control and it reminded me of a post I made when the thread was new about what fear is and what it's purpose is, from a naturalistic and evolutionary perspective. I won't go copying & pasting anything, just update my own thoughts and beliefs on what I think is the problem. I think we established long ago that fear and our control over it is the real problem we've all faced. Fear, in and of itself, is a harmless entity which has great impact over our daily lives as humans. Without fear we are utterly useless and some fears are so engrained in to our being that we don't even recognise them as such. I'd like to try and demonstrate this with a simple example. This thread was started with a discussion on cars and our non-fear of them, so I'll continue with that. You're in the city centre in the midst of the hustle and bustle, cars and buses rushing past, people everywhere and yet, the things you find yourself concerned over are probably not the things most dangerous. I'm sure most of us have no problem finding the pedestrian crossing and walking across the road. Now, move out of the city and step on to the motorway. How's that heart rate going now? How about stepping on to a train line with high-speed trains passing every few minutes? It becomes quite obvious that the fear we have over cars is something variable and changeable based on the experiences we have with them on a daily basis. However, we also have to take in to consideration the perceived fear. Note how many animals are killed by cars because they lack the fear they require to survive a conflict with one. Animals who survive a near fatal incident are more likely to survive the next one because their brains have had a chance to adapt and learn. They've built new neural pathways which fire next time they see an oncoming collision; in essence, their brains have taught them that in order to survive, they must run away when they see a chunk of metal hurtling at them at 60mp/h. This is fear. My opinion, is that we have all experienced something in our lives which we believed to be hazardous and dangerous to our health based on our intuitive understanding of said events. Therein lies the flaw in all of our thinking in that many of the things we see as a threat are exactly the opposite: benign. Because our brain doesn't know the difference between a perceived threat and a real one, those same neural connections are built and every time we encounter the problem, they fire; resulting in immediate fear and even panic. Our brains are saying "Stay away!", "Run!", "Fight!", "Get outta here!", etc., every time we encounter the problem. I'm no neurologist or neuroscientist, but I'm quite certain the brain has the capacity to unlearn things. Neural connections that are not used serve no purpose, are a waste of energy, so are destroyed in time. Those same neural connections are adversely strenghtened each time they're used, so constant fear only makes the problem worse in the long run because more connections are made, allowing for even greater capacity for incapacitating fear to take its hold. Surely then the solution to our woes is simple: simply foget all that troubles us. Let our brains recover; this is no quick process, no overnight healing can be done. It's going to take time but we all have the capacity to move on, don't we? Of course, simply forgetting is easier said than done. However, I think the statements I've presented here today are factual and correct. The anxiety we've all suffered is a learnt behaviour based on incorrect perceptions of the world which we imagined to be dangerous. Education surely does us great justice when we realise that simply understanding what is happening to us allows us to take one step away from unreasonable fear, towards reasonable conclusions; these heart palpitations are simply a matter of physics and not pathology. I understand that better than I ever have done. It is not a case of believing, it's a case of knowing. Know that you are healthy, don't simply try convincing yourself so. RLR has done us a tremendous service by offering his help and advice. I recommend reading his words more carefully and with a little more shrewdness and not acting impulsively or instinctively over what he tells us. Thanks for reading my post to you all, George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Jun 5th, 2012, 9:12am hi bigcountry.. I read that you keep having a lot of palpitations and skipped heart beats. I think you really trying to ignore your symptoms. And try to fight the anxiety beast. I think the last poster hit also a homerun when he said that you have to KNOW its alright. In my opinion , you sometimes seem to fight the anxiety and symptoms telling yourself its ok. I admire this, but it also gives a lot of pressure in your system i quess, cause you try to convice yourself. In my opinion this could be also stressful . But if it works for you.. keep doing this. At least your doing something. I sometimes notice that I decrease activities when having palpitations and always seem to respond to it..like OOOpps.. Like I wrote in my thread I had a huge attack of Chronic hyperventilation.. heartrate rapid, trembling shaking, pressure on chest and so on.. my father..almost 70 rushed me to the ER but I kept telling him... its probably CHV .. I didnt panic anymore from the senations but felt really bad. I was right..it was CHV, but now i had a lot of needles and pins and tingling feeling in my feet and toes and hand fingers for over a week and it went worse .. I still have them now When i was in the ER I never thought anything bad of my heart and shaking and so on.. but I freaked about the painful sensations and tingling needles and pins feeling of my feet toes hand arm.. I'm still freaked out cause ER dindt know these symptoms are due to my chv or it might be polyneuropathy you know why? cause that was and is NEW. I never had this so clearly although i have chronic hyperventilation, which is not the same as acute hyperventilation. Even the ER dindt know for sure why i have this..and then my mind start to race..what is this.. ? is this another symptom of an underlying illness. another symptom along with all my other symptoms like the skipped heart beats, spasms , and so on. I notice I can beat my fear of dying and heart problems and illness when I start to understand due to explanation, tests and simply hear from people like RLR that it cannot be dangerous cause.. but when something new hits me or adds on to my symptom list the thinking and doubts start again. Sometimes I do believe that its all anxiety and so on..but then just when i start to believe it.. BANG a new problem.. So i quess its a thin line.. keep it up my friend |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jun 5th, 2012, 11:23am Richie...I completely agree with you and understand that a lot of the times I am fighting my symptoms...this is what I am working hard on. For 7 years I have been scared to death, built horrible habits, thought processes etc so it is very hard to kick over night! What I am working on is trying to interrupt all of these things as they happen and retrain my response and it is not easy at all. This is the hardest thing I have ever had to do....my anxiety levels are way up because I am stepping WAY out of my comfort zone and in to an area where I am very unfamiliar with. But I am committed to changing my life and getting rid of this horrible anxiety forever. The skipped beats can stay if they would like but my primary concern is the anxiety that they cause me!!! I dont want to live like this anymore and I wish more people on this forum would get involved so that once and for all we can all over come this together. Yes RLR said we all have different areas that we need to work on but I believe the base of our problems are the same. I appreciate all of the people that are involved and RLR for the information he provides.....will I get better??? I hope so....am I going about it the right way??? I am not sure but the way I have been trying to overcome this hasnt worked so I believe in RLR and he has stated numerous times what has gotten us here and what we need to do to get our lives back so that is what I am trying to do. Thanks |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jun 5th, 2012, 1:36pm We've all built up walls in our minds that shield the light from us. Metaphorically, these walls are nothing but walls built from fear to help us ignore and avoid the situations we feel anxious in. Again, my opinion is not try to knock these walls down or try to climb over them; but simply walk through them, for they don't really exist. I've had many, many occasions where I have phoned 999, got driven to hospital in an ambulence simply because my heart rate had reached the point I believed to be dangerous to my health. RLR quite obviously pointed out that I was constantly concerned of a resting rate of approx 90-100, yet was also overly worried that I couldn't reach a rate of 160+ while I was taking low-dose beta blockers. We have operational capacities which change in any given situation; on the one hand I was comfortable with a resting rate of 60-70 and no more, but was equally comfortable with an exercising rate of 160. Should that 160 have been while resting, I'd have been straight up the hostpital in an ambulence. My opinion is that the solution to our shared concerns does not lie in an active battle against ourselves, one which we can never win; but a passive one which has a different path for each and every one of us. One does not kill a virus by feeding it that which it lives on, likewise you don't kill fear by feeding it with more fear. Fuelling the fire has never been a good method of extinguishing it. I'd also like to point out that I don't see any of us finding the answer we seek in any post here on the forums. For a while I was under the impression that Dr. Rane would eventually be along with the solution and we'd have that "Oh, yeah!" moment. I'm sorry, but that moment is not coming... not for any of us. The answers lie within us and only there can we find them. I found that as I have become much better with my concerns, I've naturally come right away from the forums because I didn't feel the constant urge to come on and discuss health problems or ask questions, or check my posts to Dr. Rane. RLR himself has commented that he once saw a quietening of the forums as a good sign and not a bad one; because it must've meant less people were suffering. Strength be with you all, George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jun 11th, 2012, 9:45am I seem to have put a downer on this post. Sorry, guys; I never meant that we should stop posting because we're not finding/not going to find the answers. I simply meant that I believe the solution is something that no other person is going to be able to reveal to us and we will eventually all find our own answers. I for one would like to see this thread very much alive. Any thoughts on my posting above? Keep the discussion open! George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jun 11th, 2012, 11:43am On the 15th of May 4335 people had viewed this post...in less than a month that number is now up to 7185 views......INCREDIBLE....imagine if all of you were able to take some time and participate in this forum.... I have tried to think about why this forum has so little participation??? RLR says he knows....I really dont know. All of us are suffering on a constant basis and this thread is maybe the closest thing we will ever have to figuring it out. I am trying to figure it out.....things are difficult in this process but I am trying new things to see if they are working. I have been suffering for 7 years daily. I have a wonderful wife and 2 beautiful daughters ages 6 and 4 with a baby boy on the way and I struggle daily with skipped beats and anxiety! I am a shell of the man I used to be. Fear dominates every second of the day. Whats silly is that NOTHING has ever happened to me...I have never fainted, never had a heart attack or problem with my heart(other than the skipped beats) etc etc YET EVERYDAY I AM SCARED???? I dont know why. I would definitely like some more direction and input by RLR but he is not going to do that....so we as a collective group should at least attempt to overcome this hell. I hope we can because I am not going to give up and I dream about the day I will never need this forum again!!! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jun 11th, 2012, 1:02pm RLR...quite a few people over this thread have mention breathing, hyperventilation etc How much does stress and breathing contribute to our anxiety/skipped beats? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jun 11th, 2012, 1:20pm 3B303E3A362C372D2B20590 wrote:
I'm not going to say any of this with the conviction of Dr. Rane, but hyperventilation is a symptom of anxiety, not the other way around. Breathing faster is part of the fight or flight response that occurs when the brain senses danger. Heart rate increases, breathing quickens, blood is pumped to the major muscles and your body rapidly prepares to fight the danger or run away from it. Adrenaline is a powerful chemical which performs a lot of important tasks during the anxious process. It will cause the liver to metabolise glucose to give you the energy you need to run or fight and I believe there is a theory which argues that adrenaline causes the muscles to use a higher percentage of their fibers, increasing the strength a person can have. I don't know whether or not this is true though, just thought I'd throw that in. Problem is, there is no danger with anxiety... it's all imagined. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jun 11th, 2012, 1:23pm George, that makes sense....I definitely have been focusing on my breathing and when I am more stressed it is definitely erratic. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jun 11th, 2012, 1:29pm I think stress of any kind will cause the body to produce more adrenaline because it helps you cope in the short-term. Part of the problem is that long-term stress or emotional upset will cause chronic elevation of your adrenaline, producing the symptoms complained about regularely on the forums such as faster heart rates and hyperventilating. I believe there's also an increased potential for palpitations to occur because part of the adrenal response is a change in the nervous system. RLR uses the analogy of a gas and brake pedal. On the one side you have the sympathetic nervous system (gas pedal) and on the other you have the para-sympathetic nervous system (brake pedal). Increased activity in the sympathetic can induce palpitations. I don't know the exact reason why, but it has something to do with there being more nerual activity and thus, more potential for those extra impulses to effect the heart. As ever, not a medical opinion or perspective, just my opinions. *EDIT* I've been thinking on this for a short while and I just wanted to add in that part of the anxious process is an increased awareness and perception of the environment. One thing that I always noticed was how jumpy I became when anxious; but couldn't see it for what it was. You know? A door slamming downstairs, a car horn, even the sudden picture changes on the television would cause me to jump suddenly. I now realise that my jumpy, timid demeanor was all just adrenaline in the works. Your pupils become dilated for one, letting in more light and allowing for a more powerful sense of sight which is able to detect much more movement. I don't know if other senses are effected likewise, but I do know that the reason for this change is clear: once again, fear... it's all about survival. Those who become more aware of the dangers surrounding them are going to survive better. I don't know if I'm blabbing on too much about this but I think a more scientific and factual approach is the way forwards. Understanding how & why these symptoms occur seems to me to be a simpler way forwards than just trying to find a way around our problems. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Jun 11th, 2012, 11:10pm What I know about hyperventilation .. you have two kinds of hyperventilating. the acute type . thats what people think of hearing the word hyperventilation. rapid breathing , paper bag thing. You also have CHRONIC hyperventilation which is much more subtle. but you have chronic symptoms. Over the last 4 years ive been two timed diagnosed due to an Astrup ( bloodgass) that I have bloodgasses that are common in people having chronic hyperventilation. In the literature there is much disagree if chronic hyperventilation is a psychological anxiety problem or in fact an illness. In Europe there are some countries that call chronic hyperventilation spasmofilie..which is treated as a disease. A lot of these people due tend to have some deficits in some vitamin bloodtests or magnesium levels and so on. Thyroid is a factor. I'm not convinced that due to anxiety I got chronich hyperventilation. Its the other way around in my case I quess. I used to jog 25 miles a week with no problem. never anxious or scared . jogging produces sometimes or even often a breathing like you hyperventilate. One day I got my symptoms out of nowhere. rapid heartbeat, pain chest.. dizzy, skipped heart beats and from that moment on anxiety kicked in. Like I told in my thread about my symptoms i grew more and more symptoms over 4,5 years with now the last one. skin burning sensation over my body. What I learn more and more that too many symptoms are addressed to anxiety. I';m gonna say it loud here.. I dont think thats entirely fair and true. offcourse anxiety aggrevates or plays a role in symptoms, but I doubt its the only factor. And even when it is or was ..havin g anxiety for years will do his bodily work. What i mean by that. It cant be normal and healthy for a body to be in constant state of arousal, It will do physical damage or disbalance. this disbalance should be addreessed too not only the anxiety. thats my opinion after years of having symptoms |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Jun 14th, 2012, 10:34am Wow, so glad this thread has been revived. I must find time to read and catch up and also join in. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Dodger on Jun 18th, 2012, 1:43am Tonight was a rough night. I woke up with feelings of pain in my chest and my left hand was asleep and hurt. I was waking up from a nightmare so I was already breathing hard and confused when I woke up. I know it is anxiety and things are returning to normal. I simply refuse to let the fear control me again. Reading thru all of the posts in this thread in particular always helps to. The sad thing is that all of this fear of having a heart attack or just dropping dead, I actually don't even know how to tell if I was actually having a heart attack. Now that I think about it maybe this is where some of my anxiety comes from. After suffering from GERD and heartburn so much I think I fear having a heart attack and just saying " nope its just heartburn on GERD" and then it really being a heart problem. Oh well its 4am and I am rambling hope you all are well. Going to try and go back to sleep. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Jun 21st, 2012, 6:50pm Dodger - that's my fear. I do handle it all quite well most of the time thanks to RLR - but I do get scared of being too complacent and not getting help soon enough...mind you, then I think oh well, there are worse ways to die. That helps..just trying to feel what will be, will be. I reckon if it ever were a heart attack, there would be no questioning it or mistaking it...so I have heard anyway. Supposed to feel like an elephant sitting on your chest and unmistakable to any of the other pains we get |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jun 25th, 2012, 9:19am RLR stated a while ago..."The result for many is a form of indentured servitude where control over daily regimen is induced, often accompanied by rituals in many forms necessary to keep life in balance. An unidentifiable unrest seems to prevail and it is this lack of identity or definition which produces the overwhelming fear. It becomes a life with near total energy divested in prevention of circumstances that are unreal and imaginary, leaving little to no energy devoted to one's aspirations, goals and sense of accomplishment. You have the same capacity as you've always held, but it is being depleted daily by attempting to exert control over factors that are irrational in form and only exist in the realm of unwarranted speculation." I believe this to be the key!!! I have tried this before but obviously not 100%. This is what I seem to have the most trouble with...the 100% part! I dont know how to get 100% confident in my abilities and my health. It is very frustrating and very tiring....I am tired every day and its because of what RLR says, that I have given all my energy in to the effort of avoiding what I perceive as imminent death if I dont stay on guard! So what are the steps to getting past this??? I have read many books from Claire Weekes and others and even though I feel like I am trying to heal myself...I am still suffering! So I dont understand where I go wrong??? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jun 25th, 2012, 1:56pm 646F616569736872747F060 wrote:
bigcountry, I believe your very question "So what are the steps to getting past this???" is evident of a mindset not yet ready to overcome the problems you face. Not that I really have a clue about what I'm talking about, but in my opinion, such questions are never fruitful. In the early stages of this thread, Dr. Rane stated that those in search of a pearl of wisdom are on a path of disapointment, not in those exact words. In my opinion, the path which seems so hidden from us now is one which we all will walk sooner or later. For me, it seems to be one which I've walked blind. I haven't gone all the way, but I find myself able to turn around and see my route exposed behind me. I can see the pitfalls and the traps stuck in the middle of the path and I can see the routes where I've stumbled. Those proverbial evils which we face are ironically nothing more than sheep in wolf's clothing, to paraphrase the old adage of a wolf in sheep's clothing. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that asking questions like "What's the next step" are never going to provide you with any substantial results. Instead of asking what you're doing wrong, maybe start figuring out what you're doing right. I know that this isn't about positive or negative thinking, as Dr. Rane himself responded to an early post, possibly even by me, regarding negative thinking being nothing more than a side effect of the anxious mind. However, maybe you should try and turn your head, and see if you've come any distance at all? After all, the best way to see how far you've come is to look behind you, right? Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe for many of us that path which we'll walk is one in which we'll walk in full sight of the goal. My experiences differ from yours, but our prize is ultimately the same. Like I've said before, I believe the way forward is not to begin a battle with ourselves or to try and fight our own minds. I try to think of it as a boat tied to the docks. The rope acts as a tether, never allowing the boat to be free. All that is required is to simply untie the rope and the boat will drift peacefully away with the natural course of the tides. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Dodger on Jun 26th, 2012, 6:36am George, I like your example of the boat tied to the docks. Part of my problem is with this fighting my mind and drifting peacefully. My "attacks" are getting farther and farther apart. I believe I have been doing a lot better with the anxiety and constant worry. I have been really good with the just letting myself drift. But for example today. I have been under a bunch of stress. This past Saturday I was laid off with no notice and obviously under stress. But I have had no palpitations. I took my daughter to work and had a sharp grab in my chest and I got a little dizzy. Lasted all of two seconds but it was enough to trigger the anxiety. So now I recognize the signs and try not to make the situation worse with more anxiety or panic. This is where I feel I need to learn to let my mind drift, but I also feel the need to "fight" with myself. I know nothing is wrong and just keep shouting at myself in my mind to stop. Kind of like slapping the panic ridden person on TV to bring them back to their senses. Well thats my day today and some more thoughts on the subject. Hope you all are well and talk soon |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Jun 26th, 2012, 9:44am bigcountry. Its what i´ve felt reading your previous posts. I think you are trying to hard. Lets believe its anxiety ( stated again and I know not everyone agrees. We dont know if its anxiety alone my friend but as long as the docs dont find anything else to clarify your symptoms on, anxiety is the magic word. Again. i'm not saying it isnt anxiety but you simply can't measure it with a test..so in my book this will always be open for debate) but anxiety. Once your subconscious has programmed our physical responses to our symptoms (anxiety) . you are in constant state of arousal and your body reacts with the adrenaline no adrenaline , cortisol and so on, sooner or later it will bound to be programmed in your system. Your system automatically will give the same feelings and symptoms in many situations where you experienced a lot of arousal and anxiety. Even if you try not to react mentally to your symptoms , inside the unconscious allready has reacted. cause its programmed to do so (by us?). Now you can say to yourself , i'm not afraid , I wont react to symptoms but that doesnt work that easily cause you are subconscious still anxious and the alarm button has been hit by your brain and your sympathicus and parasympathicus are already reacting. your flight and fight has kicked in already. So now you can try not to react but the damage is already done inside. When you have had this reactions (fight or flight or constant arousal) I quess your threshold gets lower and lower and this response will kick in instantly and in situations and moments there presumably isnt any reason. Now you can keep try to ignore it, but there is ANXIETY , so you have to dom something with it. NOT IGNORE it. or work to ignore it. That sounds like working hard to, to me, and that is stressful I would quess. Also you should ask yourself if there is any other reason (emotionally or something you went through) that these alarmbutton keeps getting off. ( so now you can think its about your bodily symptoms you were anxious but maybe there is something under your symptoms that is pushed away by focusing on these symptoms you get physicaly). then you can ignore your bodily symptoms but there is still a problem. these are two possibilities in one explanation why I quess that you keep having difficulties here. Believe me when i say I try to put the same reasoning on my own symptoms. But we need HELP with getting there. And when new bodily symptoms arrive or other keep remaining or get worse, than it doesnt help people keep saying.. I told you its anxiety or something like that so now deal with it. .. explain us why symptoms remain or what you feel now is still the anxiety path?? If it was that easy than nobody needed much help in the first place and second of all .. people do get sick and can have a problem although others say it was anxiety. There are plenty of people out there misdiagnosed. Which is not a complaint or accusation but merely how difficult it is and sometimes a very tight rope we walk on (and doctors too). You have to really believe you are ok, and then i can imagine it takes a lot of time till your old programmation pattern subsides and a new kicks in. Now if that doesnt go that easily , cause your body keeps protesting and you try to ignore it or you get new symptoms , your anxiety wins ground again cause you can feel frustrated by it and you start to wonder again. its at that moment that a doc or someone must step in and address whats wrong or not, so you can erase that wondering. and your anxiety isnt fed. The same is happening with me. my skin burning and sour feet and prickling hands. It came out of nowhere 3 weeks ago and I get NO answer. my doc doesnt know.. I quess people here dont know or recognize it so the longer it lasts the more IF ITS ANXIETY.. ANXIETY WINS. and sometimes I just think. I'm so fed up with this anxiety BS cause it feels like everything you get physicaly after someone told you..you have anxiety... is linked to that same prejudice anxiety. my burning skin? well people dont explain it , dont understand it..but hey anxiety isnt it. but any explanation why and how lacks. that explanation is elementary in learning and understanding yourself it is that horrific anxiety. long story , hope you can get something out of it hang in there |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jun 27th, 2012, 3:11pm 260D06050710620 wrote:
When you say you know nothing is wrong, are you certain that you actually do believe this to be true? I'm not trying to condescend and tell you how you're feeling or what your state of mind is, but I recall many times stating the very same thing but then I'd have a panic attack because I had some chest pains. Truly believing with conviction that these are harmless, and simply convincing yourself that you do believe, are entirely different. When I feel a palpitation nowadays, which is hardly ever, I forget it happend within seconds of the event. Whereas before I'd have to pause for a moment and check that my heart continued to beat. The way I see it is if my heart stops, I'm not going to be conscious long enough to worry anyway. I've also come completely out of the mindset that my heart is in danger too, which I believe is in a large part related to exercising. I've taken up strength training and do regular walking (more like power walking). I don't know what my heart rate is anymore, resting or otherwise. I tend to just exercise to whatever level I feel I can and don't pay attention to how fast my heart is going. I don't bother figuring out my maximum heart rate or try to keep it to any given rate. I never have done in the past and I am under the impression that my heart is certainly going to out-do me in any test of endurance. I think I'd collapse long before my heart gave up! I've also put on a lot of weight and am much physically stronger than I was before. However, being severely underweight was an unrelated concern of mine that only served to worsen my anxiety. George |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jun 28th, 2012, 8:33am George your post are very inspiring and I really appreciate you communicating with us!! I definitely need to learn from your attitude. I think a change in attitude is what I am missing. I do still believe that I am in danger so until that is resolved I will continue this viscous cycle! I have started working out and it feels great! I am afraid but I stick with my planned workout and at the end I am still alive and kicking : ) Hopefully I will be able to build the confidence that you have achieved. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jun 28th, 2012, 1:19pm 3B303E3A362C372D2B20590 wrote:
Hi bigcountry, Thanks for your kind words :-) When I first started exercising, I did so with the belief that if I lowered my resting heart rate, then I'd also be able to lower the amount my heart rate increases with anxiety. My thoughts at the time were along the lines of: 1. Current lowest resting heart rate recorded: ~70 (I assumed this was what my heart was supposed to going with no anxiety) 2. "Anxious" heart rate: 90-100 3. Begin exercise and lower resting heart rate by ~10 bmp 4. Anxious heart rate will then only be 80-90 5. Maybe lower heart rate by 15 or more bmp in time, lowering "anxious heart rate" to low 80s-high 70s. I actually have no clue whether or not this "approach" would have worked. I've been strength training now for maybe 9 months and I've gained lots of strength. However, I don't know as a matter of fact how this has affected my heart's strength or resting rate because I no longer bother to check it and obviously have no way of measuring the actual strength of it anyway. I do know that I was a 130lb weakling who couldn't do a single pushup, and now I'm approx. 185lbs and am able to do a few sets of pullups/chinups and maybe 30 pushups. Anyway, that much is irrelevant. I will say this, however; that being stronger than you're naturally meant to be, feels better than being average or weaker. I suppose that goes without saying, or perhaps I've got some insecurities as far as this is concerned. I don't consider myself to be a strong person, I've always been on the slender side and haven't got a frame built for holding lots of muscle, but I'm stronger than I ever have been and am gaining all the time, which actually seems to boost my confidence and self-belief that I actually can achieve something and given a little persistence and dedication, results start showing. I also do lots of walking. I have always walked at a fast pace, near maximum walking speed really and it's really good exercise for the cardiovascular system. It's also good for the legs too, if you do it often. Before I started, I could jog (not run) for maybe 20 seconds before I was exhausted and had to stop, heart rate pounding at 180 bmp. Nowadays, having never done any running or jogging, I notice that if I ever run or jog at any point, I find it effortless to keep it up. Anyway, I'm rambling on without much reason to this post so I'll end here until I've got something more interesting to add. Thanks, George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jul 3rd, 2012, 1:34pm My last post was quite non-specific and rambling. I had no real point to post other than to talk to bigcountry, but I see that my post has acted as a deterrent to others to take the initiative and get the post rolling again. Therefore, I'd like to take issue with this fact and as Dr. Rane himself has often pointed out, try and find out exactly why so many people read the post and yet never respond. So... reading back my own post, I feel that from anothers perspective it has no real point in this thread. It was not a specific post addressing any actual points made, just my own musings about my past. With that in mind, it seems to have acted as a blockade to others because no one has any real interest in responding to it specifically and it seems that hardly anyone wants to join in and talk about themselves. So back to the question: why? Perhaps denial plays a big part in why people are not interested in taking part here. For the longest time I too was in denial about myself, claiming that I, over everyone else, was the only one who didn't have anxiety and that my symptoms were caused by something "real". I was therefore unwilling to accept that I had to take a serious look at my own life and surroundings to try and fix the problem. Even after bringing up this point, I'll bet most people would dismiss it out of hand as nonsense. I mean after all, we know our own bodies, right? To me it seems like sense. The ones who are in denial are not taking part, but from what I can tell, at least some of us who are taking part seem to be making measurable progress. I for one don't have panic attacks or incessant worries anymore. I know Jason left the forum over a year ago and claimed to be making progress, I think bigcountry is too, and possibly Dodger. However, it is still an unfair point for me to make because I can't know the minds of those who have never shown their faces. I've got nothing more to add in this post, but I'll be thinking on this some more and will add my thoughts again soon. George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Jul 4th, 2012, 12:19am I think its not that easy and simple too just say."well its all anxiety related or vagus related" When you are 35 years healthy as can be and over night it goes wrong I think its normal that you start to think and possibly worry whats wrong. or what went wrong. I'm no doctor, I will never be one, but i'm not a dummy either. I ve studied and read alot about mental and physical health and because of that , only after a year of asking my doctors to do an astrup cause I was convinced that if it wasnt my heart that i should have chronic hyperventilation , they finaly did what I asked. And behold. I had huge chronic levels of hyperventilation. The same story with my costochondritis. I kept having a lot of problems and pain in my chest. my doc said.. anxiety.. I said. could be, but not everything in life is anxiety..people do get sick.. and behold after another half year of rope pulling I finaly was allowed to go to the specialist ( its how it works in my country) and when i came to the hospital the man who did the diagnostics..wanted to exclude a tumor.. Did everything turned out ok, than he also believed costochondritis to cause my pain. than last year I got a problem with my vision. double vision. even that double vision was put aside as.. "anxiety or nothing out of the ordinary". hmm hmm.. in the end I didnt let go and behold I have a (congenital) 4 nerve problem from by brain to one of my eye muscles. So ..you stated.. we know our body.. yes..i do believe we do. I also believe that anxiety aggrevates a lot of symptoms and let you feel crazy symptoms in your body. I also believe that if you FEEL that something is not going well in your body, and you FEEL bad physicaly, and doctors dont find an answer or cause for this symptoms and you come back for them cause they didnt leave you easily are bombarded with anxiety or hypochondriac. Now this might be true, cause offcourse you are worried when you feel worse. you should be a young healthy human , at least that what my doc says,but i keep answering but I feel like crap.. 24 hours a day. What I cant understand is that why do people think that accepting something is just anxiety is the cure. the only thing that it accomplish is that you DEAL better with your symptoms. and if ALL your symptoms come from anxiety , in the end you may feel better. But before starting to believe that its all anxiety you have to have some actual proof it IS anxiety why you have symptoms. As in my story I had to basicaly diagnoze myself the past years cause if I had believed I had anxiety than i didnt know I had.. costochondritis, I had CHV, I had a long term or congenital 4 nerve problem and so on. now all these things arent deadly diseases and I never realy was convinced i had one but because i had no answer anything remains possible imo . I just felt anxiety ALONE wasnt the answer. I now visit someone who specializes in anxiety related issues..and after a year even she is still puzzled if I have anxiety or not. She really said to me. in 20 years doing this I never had anyone in front of me with that much weird symptoms. She doesnt believe either its ALL ANXIETY. Does it play a part ? oh hell yess.. i really believe also. So if my latest symptoms.. body burning.. like a sunburn .. the same feeling comes up when i rub over my skin. heavy legs.. easily red skin when i lean on my knees with my elbows or when I lean again something with my back.. my skin easily reddens. 24 hours a day i have this all over my body... then i would like to have more explanation why nothing is wrong or why this is anxiety if it suits so many other disorders out there. ( neuropathic, MS, due to malignant cancer, fibromyalgia, hypothyroid, liver/kidney and so on) . The only way to think its nothing serious or anxiety is by exclusion or by a good explanation. I find when you some times ask for this or double check cause there so many symptoms and you want to be as clearly as you can than i feel that it almost feel like I offended someone because I'm careful about my body and I want to know whats wrong cause I have 2 children to take care of. And its almost people do like disease doesnt exist? Sorry.but it shouldnt come as a shock that a lot of people do in fact have an illness ( minor or severe) Believe me when I say I WANT THIS TO BE ANXIETY.. but how do you know?? Thats what asked here . I found a plausible explanation about my palpitations and spasms. DO I know its absolutely benign? NO, but the explanation I got was sufficient to believe I wouldnt die from it that easily :-) Now I have another symptom that isnt met with an answer by my doc so I tried to find my answer by asking here to RLR. What else can I do on this forum? We all have questions and keep asking new ones if something comes up. And still , I can take silent hints, it feels that I shouldnt keep asking my question cause I dont listen and dont believe that I might have anxiety or nothing serious is going on? that hurts ! Like I said I really want it to be anxiety but past experience has made me a bit cautious. Its all I ask..please explain to me why my body burn symptoms over my whole body pain intensity 3 a 4 on scale of 10) a bit of heavy and slightly aching joints (wrist..knee leg and upperarm, back) rubbing anything against my skin gives a reaction of sunburn. you have to really rub it a bit..not only a slightes touch..then no problem. redding skin when pressing on it or leaning is all anxiety or stress? If i know it IS anxiety alone..then yes..you can start to program yourself it is nothing serious. as long as you dont know, you will always wonder what will never be any good for your anxiety levels. not wondering about it, is an utopia, people do think and want to survive. I know it all can sound a bit harsch when just reading the plain words here that i write.. but thats no way near what I want to make clear I'm just struggling to hang in there with my symptoms and when you feel help lines dissappearing and you still get worse. its not a picknick !:-) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jul 4th, 2012, 5:33am I can't really tell you anything specific, but I can say that I've had experiences where I've gone to A&E (ER) with a panic attack and have been hyperventilating to the point where my hands begin cramping up (tetany), tingling/buzzing/pins & needles. I would have a tingling, pins & needles sensation all over my face, my arms, my stomach. I never had it severe enough to encompass my entire body, and I never had the burning you describe. Richie, have you ever taken any drugs to help your "so-called" anxiety? I'm not trying to advise you either way, but if it is anxiety, it would seem to a layman like me that in your case it's pretty severe if you've such unrelenting symptoms. Maybe trying a moderately powerful anxiolytic would help to turn the tables in your favour? The patient.co.uk article on hyperventilation doesn't describe your burning as a symptom: http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Hyperventilation.htm I'm not going to go Internet researching or trawling for data that fits your symptoms because I've no position to do so. However, I would like you to confirm something just for my, and others, clarification. Are your symptoms unremitting or do you get periods where you have relief? I can't help you either way, but I would just like to understand what's happening to you a little more. Normally there are at least some periods where symptoms are either gone, or lessened. I hope you find some answers. George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Jul 5th, 2012, 2:09pm its 24 hours and 7 days a week that I have this burning. Offcourse when extremley occupied I experience less problems.. but the moment I sit down, lay down its there.. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Jul 5th, 2012, 6:21pm Butting in...rather than following on. Just thinking back to the beginning of this thread and how we all struggled with it and how it now flows and rides and turns as we explore ourselves and our lives, as well as our bodies and the story they seem to tell. It's hard though, to be totally honest with oneself and easier to use our intellect rather than our raw feelings. That is to say; we theorize and we ponder, but I feel we have lost the honesty (with ourselves) and the mindfulness we first attended to on this thread. Its nice to ponder and debate, but for me, after reading some of this I had a sort of epiphany: Something I had noticed since the beginning of this thread (I realize this is probably not general but personal to me) was my body tension. I would note it as often as I could during the day. For example, sometimes...well most times, my legs would be entwined around each other in a sort of tension and I'd be hanging on to life in a sort of way because equally, my hands and arms would be hanging on to the side of a chair or clutching my other hand or just curled into a fist...etc etc... It was a weird kind of revelation because my body had not left my side (so to speak :)) and yet I had not, until that time way back at the start of this thread, made myself be aware of it. It was almost as if my mind and body had stopped functioning together. As well as paying attention to my body when I remembered to, every hour, I made myself pay attention to my breathing, finding it was so shallow and realizing it was no wonder I was tense. When I began to relax, I did feel better for a long while..still had palps but few. Then I let it go, just as I let this thread go and stopped working on that tension. here I am back to the tense, hanging on for dear life, palp filled life. Your thoughts are welcome and if you prefer not to respond, that is fine too. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jul 6th, 2012, 7:13am Typer...great post and that is EXACTLY what I started doing a couple of weeks ago.....its amazing how automatic anxiety and its behaviors have become!!! So automatic that you dont even notice 95% of them anymore. I was actually shocked at my breathing, tenseness, and protective behaviors that I have developed. Slowly I am trying to pay attention and stop "what I call the anxiety cascade" before it even takes place. RLR was right when he said the amount of energy we spend every day trying to protect ourselves from whatever it is we fear is exhausting us. If you can identify these behaviors, thoughts etc and change them...THIS IS THE KEY to moving on with your life. I have been using CBT as well and I have had some of the best days I have had in years! I will keep you all posted. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Jul 12th, 2012, 11:30am always good to hear good news.. I wish I could say the same. Burning skin still there ..all over my body. painful legs and shoulders, very fatique-tired. chest pain. My psychologist which I visit for some month now due to my doc thinks its anxiety and RLR thought a lot was anxiety related, thinks that anxiety has something to do with my sy,mptoms but she also thinks and notice i´m not as nearly as anxious that would normaly be logical with all my brusk symptoms. my heart rate in rest and through the day which were high a year ago are now fine. only in exercise it is quite high cause I have , i quess, a poor exercise condition. i am totaly out of shape. I´m very disappointed that my symptoms doesnt subside or lessen . the last weeks I had some anxiety like attacks at night.. trembling, feeling like passing out, warm , chest pain, belching a lot, but I got through them with a laugh on my face. `its all anxiety is what I say to myself.. and if i´m unlucky and it isnt anxiety , well than this is it, but I cant do anything more than that I did. I had tests, and been back to my doc now twice, asked some questions here,... nobody thinks something bad is going on..so.. what can i do more ??' I wish that someone could explain me my burning skin for 4 weeks now.. all over my body , and 24/7 .. I get more and more aching legs. they feel heavy and bit painful on the muscles there....same on my shoulders and arms .. its almost bizarre that no one (my doc, psychologist, also here) really cant explain why this in my case is caused by anxiety and not something else( neuropathy) and what I can do about it? It shouldnt be that difficult to know the difference I asked my doc? But he said it is very difficult in this kind of vaque symptoms. only because I have no weak reflexes or weakness he thinks its ok. but no quarantees as usual. Thats why I want to know more about this . I dont feel anxious , I feel disappointed. and almost frustrated why my symptoms are there 24/7 and never ever go away. Is that really anxiety or stress. or my CHV? I really want it to be..but how do I know? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Jul 16th, 2012, 5:36am anyone sometimes experience shooting pains on your chest for about 20 seconds that travel to your left shoulder and chestside and arm.. ? I had this today a few times, and although I cant believe its my heart cause I have numerous checks lately I slightly panicked. I still feel a sore left shoulder and arm. the pain on the center of my chest subsided. anyone recognize this? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by alex.jones on Jul 16th, 2012, 7:23am Hi richie, I get those shooting pains in my chest that radiate to left shoulder and arm plus to my upper back. I don't bother with them anymore. They come and go as they please. I've spent a lot of time and money trying to get to the bottom of this. I know they're not heart related, or gastro-intestinal, or musculoskeletal - ruled out these after too many tests/procedures etc. One dr mentioned that it might be a nerve that misfires at times, but it's not something to worry about. Try to ignore them. The more you focus on them the more they're going to control your life. (it's just an opinion based on my own experience) best Alex |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Jul 18th, 2012, 9:44am thx Alex hope you are feeling a bit better !! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jul 23rd, 2012, 10:01am Just wanted to do a quick update: I have been doing better with my anxiety in dealing with these skips and all my other anxiety symptoms.....one thing that is 100% sure is that Anxiety is the cause....how do I know this? Because I have been studying myself from a global vantage point which I have never done before....watching my thoughts, behaviors, habits etc and it is AMAZING how many of these things are completely automatic now. I have had some of the best moments, half days etc in years over the past couple of weeks. I guess the best advice I can give is to watch yourself closely and it will be scary how many things you do soautomatically are causing what you hate..... If you hit yourself in the finger with a hammer, and keep asking yourself why does my finger hurt, rather than putting the hammer down.....this is exactly what you are doing with yourself.....stop asking why your body is reacting to stress, find out the causes and then change that behavior, thoughts etc. It isnt easy but it is the way out. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Dodger on Jul 23rd, 2012, 1:17pm Nice post Big, I have had exactly the same experience. Things have been going great lately. I have had a few episodes of skipped beats that have made my lite headed and i just stop for a second and move on. I really think the last time a had ay palpitations was over a month ago. Hope every one is well and finding some peace. You all are not far from my thoughts |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Typer on Jul 23rd, 2012, 3:57pm 19343D283F4D0 wrote:
Hi again...sorry to quote my own post. Just wanted to say that for me, the more I do notice my body and how tense it is, as above...and by reminding myself regularly to breath properly and to unclench - my stomach acid and palps seemed to have lessened. In fact if I catch the tension in time, I can almost ensure the acid retreats most times. I have to say I am not sure how or why it works for me...onoy that by being mindful, I am getting a little better. I agree though, its useful f we can get to the cause...but in my experience not always necessary which is why CBT works for some. For me the cause is not so much the horrendous stress I've had, but how I view stress and how I deal with, or more appropriate to me personally, how I do not deal with it. I do know 2 people personally who have had palps after a bereavement but they went as time passed. For me its an inability to deal with stress and it sort of manifests in my body with palps and other maladies... too many to mention |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Jul 23rd, 2012, 4:20pm The content of the most recent postings is very enlightening with respect to the actual intent of this thread. It is not the external search for answers by visiting the thread, but rather the search within to discover, acknowledge and assimilate the actual truth. Again, note that the contributions on the thread are approximately 300, whereas the visits to the thread are nearly 11,000. This kind of disparity is very revealing and is one of the primary reasons that I originally established the thread. It constitutes a very common clinical feature of individuals who suffer from the type of anxiety being discussed on this forum. The purpose of this specific thread is to provide the answers rather than questions, for the true answers do in fact exist in every single individual either visiting or contributing to this particular thread. Again, study the disparity of visits to the thread versus contributions and work to determine why such a phenomenon exists as a commonality among persons afflicted with anxiety of the type discussed here. Best regards, Rutheford Rane, MD (ret.) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jul 24th, 2012, 10:47am Great Example... I had to take a rep of mine to lunch yesterday. I was having bad skipped beats all morning and I have stopped trying to figure out why for a while now so who knows why. In the car on the way there I was really getting anxious....I just wanted to turn around and go home and crawl in to a hole.....but instead I stopped all my anxious thoughts on a dime and said lets look at this a different way. SO I started looking at myself from a global view....I was tensing every muscle in my body, I was breathing erratically and my thoughts were going crazy! So I took a step back and started with my thoughts. I said RLR says these things are not dangerous...I have had all of the heart test with the same result....so why am I nervous. Then I started looking in to all of the tenseness and said to myself you need to relax...if you are going to die from these beats then at least enjoy the last minutes of your life. Next I went to my breathing...I slowed it down and thought of something relaxing. After that I just engaged myself in conversation with my rep and said whatever will be will be and told myself to stop wasting my life trying to protect myself against every feeling I have. It is stress causing these feelings...so realize it is stress and work on the causes not the feelings that come with it! Hope this helps! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jul 26th, 2012, 10:56am So I am learning a ton in my journey against Palps and anxiety and it really is amazing how much of what I am doing is learned habit and behavior. I have days where all of the palps and anxiety symptoms are the same as they have been for years, but my awareness of how I am reacting to all of those is changing.....slowly....but at leasts its changing. Anxiety is a state of mind...your mind does not know the difference of reality and the misinformation and scary thoughts you provide it on a minute by minute basis.....so change your thoughts and change your reality. I will keep you all posted of my progress and hope that it helps even one of you because a life with anxiety over palps is really no life at all. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Jul 30th, 2012, 6:56am last weeks , beside my continous skin burning for 2 months now almost, I experience more and more symptoms from my chest and heart. I believe I have constochondritis like complaints on my chest. For the last 3 or 4 months I could reasonable easily put my fear for my chestsensations beside me. The thing is that it always feels like my body will produce more and more pain or symptoms that eventually I fall back in doubts. last weeks I notice I can hardly stand up straight or walk anymore or my chestpain increases instantly from 2or 3 to 5 or 6 or more (scale to 10)when I stand up and start walking. I almost start belching at the same time . It has come to a point that I dont like to stand up !!?? let alone walking and go out. The pain increases instantly while doing this and it sometimes it feel like its a bit stupid to keep walking or even standing up when this gives me more pain??! Also at night I sometimes experience strange panic like sensations. I call them panic like cause I dont recognize whats going on. When i go to sleep i can hardly lay on my left or right side due to the pain on my chest. so only the back remains. I fall asleep quite easily and then after one or two hours I often wake up and instantly my chest and heart go wild. I feel nausiated and start beching like crazy. sometimes even trembling( the last symptom I often think its anxiety related like) the trembling and shivering is now gone , but I have this belching , nausiating feeling, painful chest, left shoulder and jaw and palpitations. So its all back.. The strangest thing is that including my shrink and my doc thought and thinks my anxiety was less. He still thought that my skin burning was still anxiety related although the ER doc two weeks ago didnt think that there was any relation. It probably is anxiety, also the chest pain symptoms belching and so on, but it isnt getting better.. its a strange and difficult to deal with |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jul 30th, 2012, 9:32am Richie, I've noticed that in your posts you regularely claim with conviction that you've somehow contracted or developed a disease or disorder. If you had costochondritis, then it would be known to your doctors. According to Patient.co.uk, Costochondritis is something that can be diagnosed without even the need to equipment. I don't know if this is actually true, but I would be willing to trust the resource (http://www.patient.co.uk/health/Costochondritis.htm). They claim: "Do I need any investigations? No investigations (tests) are needed to confirm costochondritis. However, investigations may be performed to rule out other causes of chest pain if the cause of the pain is unclear. Examples of such tests would include an electrocardiogram (ECG - a heart trace) or a chest X-ray." Approximately two years ago I had very scary chest pains for months on end and I was convinced beyond doubt I was having mini heart attacks every time they occured. Then one day while in the bath I noticed that every time I tried to sit up, I'd get moderate pains shooting, stabbing and cramping around my chest and upper back. They came on suddenly each time I used my arms to push myself up frontwards. It was from that point on that I began to realise the chest pains were caused by me being so tense and tight. I didn't even notice how tight I had my chest, back, arms, neck and abdomen, and to some extent, my legs. It would be fair to say I had almost all my major muscle groups clenched up ready for some terrible event never to occur. Don't you ever notice this? Focus on your own body and you'll probably suddenly realise how tense you are. It's hard to let go of all the tension, but it's certainly achievable. From mine, and probably others perspectives, you clearly have anxiety. I'm not going to condescend, but I know from my own experience that you are not prepared to accept your anxitey; even if you think it's secondary to your symptoms, which I have no position to comment on and Dr. Rane has tried to explain. Interestingly, I've had some moderate sunburn this week and I'd be interested to know if my burns feel anything like the burning you descibred as "sunburn-like". 1. Sensitive to touch and painful when twisting the burnt body part (such as the neck). 2. Constant hot/warm on the burnt parts. 3. Tight. Is this concordant with your symptom(s) of burning? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Jul 30th, 2012, 10:10am hi George I live in another country then you do. In my country costochondritis isnt diagnosed . when you know what its not, you may call it costochondritis if you want to, but you cant be 100% diagnose costochondritis .. thats what my doc said. So its not that easy to say I have it. I have symptoms that very well could be costo said my doc. but also anxiety is mentioned. also CHV. you would think all would take another treatment, but again, my doc says in my case the treatment isnt that different. The doctor and in the hospital people know to say what I dont have but dont know what I do have. So anxiety is named. which is true. I dont deny that. CHV is tested and diagnosed. costochondritis could be. the sunburning feels like a constant sunburn like carpetrub like burning on my legs and arms and torso, feet and hands. when my skin touches clothes or my bed blankets it feels itchy burning. when I sit my buttock feels slight burning. my back feels the same burning when i sit against something with my back. when you rub your skin the burning intensifies. but also when not touching it ..they feel like sunburning on my skin ..mostly the legs.. when i stretch my wrists or kness I can feel it intensify leaning on my arms.. burning intensifies there. Laying under my blankets and it gets warmer..it feels hot, and around my kness more burning. its constantly there. sometimes a bit cold burning on my legs espescially when I dont touch anything with it hope this gives you more idea if its the same |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jul 30th, 2012, 12:23pm Well I had a great weekend....not that I didnt have palps or anxiety but I have been slowly changing my attitude to them and ITS WORKING!!! I use to have 1000's of skips a day....now I am having 100's. Those 100's when they happen I just let them happen....I tell them to do their best and I am not scared anymore...AND I TRULY AM NOT. It is a great feeling and anxiety and palps have owned me for 7 years straight BUT NOT ANY MORE....am I healed...NOPE....do I care....NOPE. I am on the road to recovery....I know many of you will ask, How do you know? Because I have never felt like this towards my symptoms. I truly dont care and when you get to that point you will understand exactly what I am talking about. Please understand that my goal now is to get my life back. IT ISNT TO GET RID OF THESE PALPS....I am prepared to have them the rest of my life if that is what happens then so be it. What I am not doing anymore is letting them scare me, or believing that they will harm me in any way. Thats the difference. I hope this helps and I will keep you all posted. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Jul 30th, 2012, 3:10pm That's the spirit! You can't rid yourself of the palpitations, no matter how hard you try. It's a matter of physics over anything else. I too no longer care for my skips/extras/thuds/etc., I'm glad to hear you're feeling better! Richie, From what I can gather on various reliable medical web sites, Costochondritis isn't that hard to diagnose. I can't claim any of this with certainty, but patient UK is a reliable source of information and its content written by medical professionals. If they say it's diagnosable without the need for equipment, I have no choice but to believe them; unless conflicting evidence from equally reliable sources is available. If your doctor has told you "it could be costochondritis", why on earth didn't he test for it? What kind of doctor would claim that you may have a disorder, but do nothing about it? I'm a little perturbed. The way you present your information would lead us all to believe that your doctors are absolutely useless. Perhaps this piece of information gives us an insight in to your own state of mind? I'm thinking back to my post on denial; and that you seem to believe your doctors are of no help to you. You regularely make posts claiming your doctors keep telling you what you don't have, but never what you do. Clearly you're seeking out some form of illness or disorder and have convinced yourself you've got something terribly wrong. You've already been told you have CHV, but I don't know anything about it. I do know that tingling/prickinling sensations occur in various body parts such as hands/arms/feet/etc. when you're hyperventilating. Maybe your burning is an exaggerated symptom? Coupled with severe anxiety, might make for a compelling explanation of your symptoms. Since Dr. Rane has presented the fact that neurological diseases are always progressive, maybe you should at least take respite in the fact that your symptoms are not progressing. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Jul 30th, 2012, 10:28pm hi bigcountry great news. very good to hear/read. Keep up this state of mind. Ive been there only for a very small amount of time and then my mind body played increasing tricks (more and more chestpain when doing anything and the skin burning)on me and finally I cave in. its tough sometimes, so hang in there George, In a way it is strange how medicine sometimes work. at least, in my country. I'm not alone in my assumption ( my wife , friends and family too) that its too much about what I dont have, but less about what you do have. When I got diagnozed with CHV, which is not acute hyperventilating , so not easily noticed as such, it was on my own instigation. When i visited my doc several times and the ER for the 2nd time I said, I start to believe its not my heart but it must be something, could it be CHV? mistake number 1. never say to a doc in my country what YOU think you have. from that moment I asked it, it took almost a year they tested me finally for it. and I was right. Then after that diagnoze, nobody did anything with it, cause now they were convinced it was of no use in my case cause it was all anxiety. i've had the same with my eye, double vision rose in a few months. Well it was nothing all over again, and in the end , again after I said this isnt normal, or only when i panic, its 24/7 there ,isnt there more to it. finally I got referred to an orthoptist and eye doc and then alarmbells went off. I got screened for a tumor, and in the end they now still think its congenital 4 cranial nerve problem. So again its like I have to diagnoze it myself. In my case there is a genuine feeling that doctors spent time and a lot of time telling me what i dont have then explain what I do have. even anxiety and what it does didnt get explained. When I had and have disturbing chestsymptoms I never got told I had skipped heart beats and where the pain did come from. the only thing I heared was ,its not your heart what you feel. its nothing. then finally I found this site and not long after that a substitute retired doc which by coincident had my docs evening watch told me. you do have skipped heart beats , i feel them. did nobody explained you you had them and what this is? I told him NO, it wasnt my heart is what my doc and cardio said. he started laughing. it is your heart , but it isnt a problem. you probably have vagus induced palps , most likely due to your stomach . that last thing he found most plausable. I told them Someone on a site on the net, DR Rane, told me more or less the same a week ago, and that I was happy about it, cause finally someone EXPLAINED what I felt. He agreed with me. Explanation is everything he said. taking the time once to explain deminish a lot of insecurity and questions he said. But nowadays its all about economics and there isnt enough time. the pain in my chest it all went the same. Well it isnt your heart. but what it is? never any explanation. really they think it can be costochondritis. But it wouldnt change their approach they say. its not life threatening or seen as a solution to my problem. I'm healthy for all they think and I worry to much about my symptoms. being in pain for years and not be able to do normal things when 5 years ago I was running 20 miles a week without problems or anxiety wasnt any indication for anyone to look into what has cause this drastic change? that puzzles me!! I now work with someone specialized in anxiety issues and even she cant get a real clue if my symptoms are truly anxiety caused. There is anxiety for my symptoms. thats for sure. So it doesnt work in handling with my symptoms and probably will induce them more. I really do believe that. I really do believe anxiety can do a lot of things in your body. What I dont believe its the answer to everything I feel. its even dangerous to assume that in the future with everything I will ever feel or run into physically. now its the skin burning. sure it can be anxiety. but is it causing it mimic it. or? I hope you can understand its not easy too believe that when all I hear ..i dont know what it is, but I dont think its serious cause of some basic reflex and strength tests. Probably anxiety. If someone says to you..I dont know what it is..and then start telling me what he think it is..and that its probably benign, I start to think.. wait a minute..you just said you didnt know??!! I keep reading that I persue an illness. its the other way around . I want to be sure I DONT have an illness cause all is put on anxiety too fast for my comprehension. skin burning is seen in anxiety but more in attacks and not 24/7 for weeks. I also dont know whats meant with progressive. the skin burning itself progressed over my body. only very rapidly. so which progression is meant? I have this burning 24/7 . Reading a site about Small fiber neuropathy I read a lot of stories of people diagnosed firstly with anxiety or hypochondirac and so on, but in the end had small fiber neuropathy. some have pain and sensations in feet and after a while hands and legs and arms. some only have burning feelings on their skin day in day out. nothing more at first. good reflexes and strength doesnt rule out SFN. normaly SFN doenst go this fast through whole of the body but it isnt impossible and is often ideopatic then. So that means no cause found .easy explanation. the only question I have which in my believe is merited. please tell me the difference between my burning of possible anxiety and SFN burning of the skin? my doc cant give that explanation! i know i'm a difficult guy in that perspective. I ask questions and I think. I know thats maybe not very smart to do in this situations and that its caused by maybe doubts or fear. But still I think its normal to get a good explanation. Dr Rane does everything he possibly can on a site to do this. but he simply doesnt have the time to go into depths otherwise he would have a dayjob doing this. I understand this, but I would benefit greatly and I would nurrish any deeper explanation as icecream. for me it would work wonders. Why isnt my burning the same ? why does anxiety persist and give symptoms 4 years non stop? Why is my autonomic nervous system so sensitive. is it congenital? why is a person 5 years back running miles a day and never have any worry about his body. and is now nearly able to get through the day doing nothing? my answer is. cause I dont know what else to think. 5 years ago I didnt have these sensations and pain so I didnt have to worry. I started worrying when I starting having these symptoms So what caused the symptoms? anxiety? doesnt seem logical in my opinion. can it be anxiety ? sure, everything is possible in my book. people do die and get sick also at my age of 40 In my country and in my environment people who were really sick, terminal, got mistaken , were treated for anxiety first. when finaly came out they were terminal ill, the explanation of the doctors was.. well but he really acted extremely anxious. yeah right he or she was.. they felt something was seriously not going well in their body. I know these are extreme stories and not normal. too cut a long story short. Everyone carries his bagage for years due to experiences in his or hers life. For me, I cant really think of anything serious that would have given me anxiety, other then that i;'ve always been a thinker. that bag of experiences also after I got my symptoms greatly determines your and this case mine conduct and believes. I quess I lost trust in my body, my self cause when doctors give you the assumption there is nothing wrong with you, but afterwards there was something (allbeit minor) wrong with you, and you have pain for years now non stop and are not the same person anymore as 5 years back and the only thing you hear. its you..its anxiety. it feels like hell. its like I on purpose want to feel like this. I'm some kind of idiot. and in my believe I just want to get rid of these symptoms and have my life back. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jul 31st, 2012, 8:20am Richie...I truly think that this is the hardest hurdle for all of us.....we have a feeling of acceptance but then when the symptoms dont disappear right away we think that "maybe I there is something wrong with me" and we go back to worrying. The best line I have ever read is The Anxiety Trick--You experience Discomfort, and get fooled into treating it like Danger. So your body reacts in a proper way! We all need to give up the fight.....and for good. Once you do that your body will return to a state of calm......BUT THIS TAKES TIME!!! You cant be stressed for years and expect your body to recover over night....it takes months! But I have read enough recovery stories, 1000's to believe that it is obtainable and for the first time ever I am seeing the results of totally giving up!! So ---Drop the Gun and Go Towards the Tiger........it is just a kitty cat. Hope this helps. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Dodger on Aug 2nd, 2012, 8:59am BIG COUNTRY I love your posts. They always seem so well thought out and stated in such a great way. I love this forum so much as the core group has always been so supportive of each other and the problems we all face. I almost slipped today. I have been really stressed lately, lost my job, insomnia for 4 days, etc, and today I started having some chest pain. The old habits started to come back, thinking about ER what will everybody do if I am having a heart attack ,feeling my pulse, blah blah blah. Just stopped dead in my tracks started taking deep breaths turned on the Olympics and just started trying to relax. Feeling much better now and just thought I would come on and share. It has certainly been better and it does take time. Palpitations don't seem to happen much anymore and most times I can chalk it up to Reflux or just gas. Just trying to untrain my mind and body from reacting the way it always has. Take care everybody and thank you |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Aug 2nd, 2012, 9:05am Dodger...great job today....I know how challenging those moments can be and all it is are memories and habits coming back in a bad way. Thats why I love the CBT approach to this whole thing because it allows you to use logic rather then raw emotion with these issues. When I am having those bad moments I like to jump out of my head immediately and use things like..."Has this ever happened before" "Yes" " what happened then" "nothing" "what do you honestly think is going to happen this time" "nothing" and then I move on. It can be so difficult sometimes but use your logic and not your raw emotion and that is exactly what you just did today so congratulations!! I always say to myself, you didnt get here over night, so you wont be healed over night either.... The people that recover are the people who have these feelings and live life anyway....because in reality there is nothing wrong with any of us!!! So lets go live our lives. Once you get to this point then nothing else matters. Keep up the great work Dodger...it is not easy but well worth the effort!!! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Aug 7th, 2012, 7:59am THE HARDEST PART-- I am not sure but I think the hardest part of this whole process is trust in that it will work. We all attempt to give in to the fears that we have about the physical symptoms that arise due to anxiety...I dont need to list them because there are so many. Once we give in we continue to have these symptoms....that is where we all struggle. I have been having quite a few bad days in a row. The difference this time around is that I have not let it stop me from doing what I should be doing. This last couple of days has been pretty rough....funny enough it is not my palps that are bothering me...they have diminished SO MUCH that I am actually surprised at how few I have after having 1000's a day for so long.....so I know what I am doing is working. Now I have this background anxiety that has stuck with me all day everyday for about the last 5 days. Its almost like the focus on my palps covered this up??? But yet I am still moving forward....working, exercising, playing with my kids. I feel like I am in a fog the entire time and I certainly dont like this feeling but it is not going to stop me from living my life. Sorry for the rant, but sometimes I just need to talk about what is going on with me to someone other than my head : ) Bigcountry |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Aug 7th, 2012, 9:02am hi Bigcountry Always nice to read something from you ! Trust is everything. trust in yourself, your body , life. Trust is build on experiences. If these experiences are good than slowly or sometimes instantly its there. The difficult thing is that 1 bad thing or experience often kicks in harder. 1 bad word often needs 10 friendly positive words to level Mentally I often understand these processes. I even can guide my thoughts sometimes or correct my irrational believes. I understand how anxiety works. I even believe and understand what it can make your body believe. (symptoms). what I just cant get any grip on, is that my symptoms are 24 hours a day there. it never seems gone. Or when I start to feel a bit better than I notice something else. A new thing enters the frame. and I start to wonder. It always seems that my body finds a new thing to keep my focus on my body. The moments I'm in a state of mindlessness , i'm not focused on my body and having fun doing something. POOOFF BAAMMM something kicks in. Why? I often think .. I'm not focusing, doing something I like. no fear noticed. no anxiety on the surface .. and still... BOOM ! Thats what I cant figure out. And offcourse that insane burning skin symptom..that suddenly after some years of possible anxiety chest complaints. found his way into my life just at the moment I seemed to settle for my chestsymptoms. Hang in there my friend ! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Aug 15th, 2012, 9:12am PROGRESS-- I hope you all are doing well. I know that not many of you post but based on the 13400+ views on this post people are watching closely so I would like to update you on some of my progress. Life has been pretty busy for me....in less than 2 weeks we will be having a c section and having our 3rd child, a boy! I have 2 girls, 6 and 4, so this will be a great addition to our family. As you can imagine this is a pretty stressful time. I havent noticed an increase in my palps and I have been working hard to just let my anxiety be there without any reaction from me...I get better at this every day! I have been sleeping better and life in general is better. I just dont react to any of my bodily symptoms....some days are harder than others but even on the hard days I still live life. Its funny because the symtoms are still there but my reaction to the symptoms is reduced greatly so I dont see that huge jump in anxiety on my bad symptom days...I just remind myself to let them be and move on with my day. To be honest this is the answer!!! I havent felt this confident and alive in 7 years....I actually see some light at the end of the tunnel and it feels wonderful. Well thats it for now. Take Care! Big Country |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Aug 15th, 2012, 10:51am first of all congratulations !! Hope that everything goes well. In my case its vice versa. lot of chest pain, dizzyness, still the burning skin, pain form chest to shoulder and arms.. lots of burping. I tr y and try, but my body symptoms still win. I try to all let it be.. but its so hard, because the sensations are non stop Keep up the good work Bigcountry |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Aug 15th, 2012, 11:11am Richie...nice to hear from you. I just wanted to make a comment on your recent post....you said "In my case its vice versa. lot of chest pain, dizzyness, still the burning skin, pain form chest to shoulder and arms.. lots of burping. I tr y and try, but my body symptoms still win. " I have symptoms all day everyday as I should...I have been stressed for so long that my body is reacting appropriately! You say that you try and that your body still wins.....How long have you tried? It takes months for your nerves to start healing from the mental trauma that you have put them under. You have to Day in and Day out, give your nerves a break for this process to work. Lets put it this way....you break a leg and you get it casted, the 3rd day you are tired of the pain so you say to yourself...I am going to give in to the pain and my leg will be healed.....That is not how it works. You have to believe 100% that your symptoms are caused by anxiety and THEY ARE. Then the next step is to allow your nerves to heal by not reacting to the symptoms for a long time.....you wouldnt hit your broken leg with a hammer every day and then ask why it isnt healing would you? That is exactly what you are doing here and this is exactly why you are in the CYCLE of anxiety. I have had every anxiety symptom know to man....I was dizzy for months, panic attacks daily etc etc...you name it I had it. This is why RLR post almost the same response over and over for years and years to almost all of the post on this website.....not every one has the same symptoms but his response is the same. We can all spend the rest of our short lives looking for the answers we think will cure us, or we can realize that we already have the answers and be brave enough to take the steps necessary to get our lives back. Hope this helps? Big Country |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Aug 16th, 2012, 11:37am I just wanted to point out something that I have been unable to figure out and RLR mentions it all of the time....since I posted yesterday there have been over 100+ views of this post in less than 24 hours and yet only Richie had any input. Hmmmm....I am trying hard to understand why? I really dont know. What I do know is that I am 100% committed to getting to the point where I never have to come back to this website ever : ) No offense RLR : ) But I want anxiety caused by palps to be something that I remember and not something that I deal with daily and I am working on just that and this site and the input from RLR and many of you have allowed me to do just that. So maybe I will never know why so many look but most dont comment but just thought I would throw it out there. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Dodger on Aug 20th, 2012, 5:02am Hey BigCountry, I love your insight and your thought process on these things. I to am trying to "heal" for lack of a better word. What is difficult for me is that I can go a month or more without having any problems but then one day I have an episode of palpitations or chest pain and my instincts go right back into panic mode. This is where I think the problem lies for me. I have been working really hard on breaking the cycle. I don't check my pulse every half hour, most chest pains seem to be gas related or at least GERD related. The various aches and pains I just chalk up to being older and out of shape as I start a new job and try to loose some weight. But then like yesterday I walk into a grocery store and feel a quick run and get light headed and I can feel it all starting again. I resist the urge to fall back into the same routine but it still sticks in my mind for way to long. So that is where I am at right now and what I am trying to accomplish. Hope all is well with everybody and that we are finding peace. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Aug 20th, 2012, 8:04am Dodger...so good to hear from you! I think it helps for us to talk this out so I love that you are willing to post. As for your run of beats that you experienced yesterday that make you light headed I am all too familiar with these experiences. They are hard to experience if you havent had a chance to read RLR posts. He speaks of GERD or other problems that lead directly to this type of event,,,,he then goes on to explain the relationship betwen the vagus nerve and the heart and why we experience these runs....BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY....he goes on to explain how no matter how many times this experience happens it can NEVER over ride the pacing of the heart. I think the analogy he uses the most is if you have a twitching eye,,,,it will never make you go blind. As far as being light headed...I think there are 2 answers for that....One is the adrenalin you shoot through your body because you are immediately terrified you are going to die, and Two the vagus nerve also stimulates the brain and can give you this feeling. Now after reviewing what I type I smile to myself because even knowing this I still get caught off guard occasionally by this exact same experience. So here is what I know....There is nothing I can do about the occasional run of skipped beats caused by a number of different bodily functions that we have little or no control over.....WHAT I DO HAVE CONTROL OVER is how I react and how I let these feelings affect me. If we can all work and master this 2nd part of the equation, that is when we can move on with our life. As long as there is even 1% of fear left in you about these experiences that a doctor of 40+ years, RLR, has explained to us in great detail...then we will continue to struggle. Be strong Dodger, I have every faith in you and everyone else on here that we can overcome this and lead spectacular lives! Big Country |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Dodger on Aug 23rd, 2012, 12:20pm Wow here I was cruising along and then wham today goes straight in the gutter, I have been having skipped beats all afternoon. Boy these are the worst of the "problems" the just make me feel so strange, I have not had palpitations in months but these things drive me bonkers. I have come to grips with the palps but these skipped beats are another matter. I cant figure them out. Having a great day, have a nice lunch a couple of cookies and then some alone time with the wife( if you know what I mean :) ) then I start feeling the skipping Makes me light headed and just throws everything off. Uuuuugh ok I will stop whining now. Just trying to make sense of everything. I also realize that most if not all of these issues are GERD or heart burn related. It is just so frustrating and confusing sometimes. I think that I might have conquered my fear that I am going to die of a heart attack every time something like this happens. I mean if it was actual heart problem most of us would probably have passed away by now. Hope you all are finding some peace. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Aug 27th, 2012, 9:54am Update Still skin burning. typical thing remains. the moment I seem to accept this symptom my chestsymptoms grow more severe. Lately I experience a lot of pain and pressure on my chest while standing up or walking . Climbing the stairs become a problem again. I try to convince myself its not my heart. but the muscles. Yesterday it all went out of control when the pain, after climbing the stairs, increased from 4 to 8(scale of 10) . Instantly I doubted everything. The pain is also heavy on the back side of my left and right shoulder. also the pain is significant below my breastbone. I guess this pain must be muscles, dont you guys think? But the referpain to my jaws and arms still annoys me. When will the "torture"end? I hope you guys have better days !! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Aug 28th, 2012, 7:16am update I went back to my fysiotherapist who is skilled in anxiety like disorders. I went back cause I need to work on my cognitive behaviour to my bodily symptoms. The need for explanation, re assurance. I know I have severe pain and chestproblems, skin burning, some strange values. today a vitamine D deficiency came through the labtests and you can read also I found something new the EKG said. non specific interventricular conduction delay. the cardio a month ago said everything was fine but the paper that was sent to me told that the EKG had read this So again I start to wonder whats wrong I genuinly feel this cant go on. OR i am in severe problems , which would mean all doctors are morons cause they dont seem to think so... or seem to take pleasure to think everone is a hypochondriac or.... I am the moron... So i caved in. I am the moron. I went to her..told her everything and she understood and told me that - I have been training my brain to think i;m in constant danger. I became highly sensitive of bodily sensations, interpretated them als dangerous or not normal, so my brain has become familiar with that She told me that its completely logical that if I believed that exercise was too much for my body, my brain started to act like that and gave impulses to my body for it. I have pavlov´ed myself that pain is not normal and therefore i'm in danger that now my brain and body use pain . anything closely related to doing something that I normally think as ( well I dont know, This is not normal, I dont trust this, I'll probabably fall dead if doing that, my heart cant take this) only the idea of doing it or before doing this triggers an immediate (anxiety and pain response) in my body. consequense.. I´m not using my body anymore and I feed and stimulate the fear and the pain and symptoms. therefore the body weakens. any time I try to exercise, sometimes just walking, I usualy get triggered with more symptoms, this is normal she said. your brain starts to tell your body..DANGER THIS is what we told each other NOT to do. so STOP. you have to learn your brain again there is no danger. but first this will probably increase your symptoms while starting to change this behaviour by moving. I needed to accept this and not try to explain it. or feel it. Just let it be.. take it with you in your back pack ..and thats it.it will not go away, but you dont have to feed it. Its in there and it stays in there. I told her I was afraid of doing that,so I knew it was the right hit on the nail what she told me. She said..ask your last medical questions and then close it in your back pack I told her that I did want to know about the thing I wrote just earlier in a new thread. She said..ok..try to get your answer and then it stops.. you need to change your approach here. It will be a bumpy ride.and was going to be tough Lot to digest. Its scary..but it makes a lot of sense. I hope i'm strong enough.. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Aug 29th, 2012, 11:02pm another smaller update Well yesterday I went out and took my virtual back pack with me . In there all my sensations and symptoms. It was hard. I quess i managed reasonably well. Went to sleep. I live in Europe so I just had the night behind me and had a very rough night. I started "talking"to my symptoms and sensations. Tried to have no fear. Because I wasnt to sensitive on my heart I suddenly noticed that the pain and belching/burping shifted and started moving under my ribcage. Normaly its a bit in the middle and right under sternum , it suddenly moved to the left and instantly I felt my left chestmuscles and shoulder and jaw react and it really felt like my heart would explode. A lot of burping again. and after an hour it just shifted back to the right place of my chest. symptoms deminished left and all the chestsymptoms now occured on the right side. this has to be stomach or bowel related I mean i cant imagine that if it was my heart the symptoms would shift Can bowel irritations and stomach irritations. I have the idea its my bowel, can these symptoms heart like problems and chest pain? As far as I know, yes they can. Does it fit in the story I told yesterday or is there a bodily cause for the pain and chestsensations I feel. my stomach or bowel? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by martinpetersen on Aug 29th, 2012, 11:28pm Of course I can't tell about you and your situation, but I have heard and read - and felt - many times that stomach related issues can have an impact on or feel like heartsymptoms. I feel with you in the frustrations of not being able to tell what causes what. I seem to go through changing periods of symptoms and not having symptoms. And when they are there often, I can't help looking for reasons. One sure trigger in my case is rather big meals with deserts and wine in the (late) evening. But I also get my symptoms in other situations. At the moment I feel it can be quite positional. If I lie on the - especially left - side, I get "a spell" more easily, it seems, than if lying on the back. Actually I get them mosten often when lying down. Unfortunately the "cure" of getting up and get going isn't so attractive at night. Good luck. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Aug 31st, 2012, 1:16am hi Martin ! I recognize what you wrote. Its like I wrote some time ago. every time I start to try to believe its anxiety or gerd or nothing serious at least , my body throws new curveballs. (symptoms) Last days my chest pain and chest pressure are quite heavy. A lot of burping and standing up seems to increase my sensations. Just moving from sitting down to standing up and try to walk to the kitchen or bathroom gives an increase in pain and pressure on my chest which is greeted with excessive burping and sensations of fear or vaso vagal like? (sweating seems to come up slightly,and a glow in my body, sometimes a slight shivering shaking takes over and the feeling I'm going to die or vomit everything out of me). Its this strange increase in symptoms that keep distracting me and bring me right back to my arteries and heart. I would like to know if anyone has the same sensations? does it sound like something others experience as well? And if anyone could explain why this is not heart or arteries related but something else? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Sep 7th, 2012, 12:31am I was wondering how you guys are? Lately I only read myself at this thread. Although I'm a nice guy ;) ;D I would really like to read how you all are doing . update myself. I 'm exercising a bit more. almost everyday i',m walking a few miles and I notice i'm a bit more active. I keep noticing I have pain on my chest for 24 hours a day. This is going on for almost months now. Lot of burping. At night laying down the pain on my back I feel the pressure on my chest. I notice I really never stop focussing or thinking about WHY I feel what I feel. Its like a radar tuning in. There are moment I still think I have angina pectoris or heartlike problems. Then often i think. Almost impossible cause why should you feel constant pain there for months and still be here? doesnt make sense. Then I suddenly sometimes wonder if my oesophagus or stomach have a problem. offcourse cancer being a true anxiety like hypochondriac like person crosses my mind then. the strangest thing is , I got an instant lumbago . .. try to carry something and poooff my back instantly reacted. this time middle of my back . could hardly breath from the pain and I could hardly move due to the pain. Then I dont mind having this pain. the first day I really couldnt move from the pain but still I walked and so on. When I know what it is , I dont seem to mind pain at all. But the problems on my chest are much more a problem for me. I just dont trust the sensations. More and more my attention shifts to my oesophagus And really thinks my problems arise from problems in there. Most of my pain is always a bit to the right of the middle of my sternum and a bit to the right of my ribcage below. the whole of my chest and ribs and arms and shoulders and to the back often hurts, but that right side of the sternum is really always there. adding up the excessive burping and you know that I will start to wonder.. Is there anybody who can tell me if this is oesophagus related? or would oesophagus problems be right behind the sternum or left? When I lay at my right or left side the pain increases a bit. WOuld my oesophagus react to this? I hope you guys do better !! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by martinpetersen on Sep 7th, 2012, 1:09am Hi Richie You really MUST be a hypochondriac with all the different symptoms that seem to come and go. :-) :-) What might interest you from MY little universe here, is that I was at the MD yesterday because I felt that my palps and other stuff was SO related to the stomach/GI-trackt and intake of food. Really had this feeling of strong pulse while lying down all night. Extra systoles now and then. The MD did an ecg at once, everything ok, then he felt and pressed my tommy to see if he could feel anything wrong which he couldn't. No aneurism either. That would really HURT, he said. And THEN he told me in stronger terms than I heard before at my doctor's how strong the connection between the stomach (also the stomach-acid) and the heart is - through the vagus nerve. Good old RLR-song for me, but he really emphasized the stomach-heart relationship. Which certainly also relate to the causal relationship I have noted: Eating and drinking too much, too late causes palps. He offered me betablockers which I didn't want and then he offered me a "proton pump inhibitor", Pantoprazol which reduces the production of acid in the stomach. Even though I only now and then feel reflux, he thought it might be a good idea. And this first night with this medicine doing its thing was just so good. Though of course I don't know if the medicine is to praise. So that's what's new around here! Good luck and remember doing things that hasn't anything to do with you bodily feelings! Martin |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Sep 7th, 2012, 5:17am hi Martin good to hear from you. So the vagus nerve and the correlation between stomach and palps again made !! Very good to know (again). I probably do fit the hypochondriac type of person. Although I sometimes bring on that I wasnt this way BEFORE my sensations. I will add that no sensation ever leaves. I have always the same sensations. or get more. Only the sensations on my chest shift from left to right sometimes. The way how I try to explain it, differs a lot. Heart, angina pectoris artherosclerosis, than oesophagus , then the worry maybe something neurological cause I do have skin burning and sore muscles. and so on. thats the anxiety and hypochondriac in me. I want everything to be explained perfectly and than I accept the pain or sensation. like the lumbago in my back now. It doesnt stop me at all, cause i know what it is and I dont mind. I wish my symptoms and sensation took a weektrip or went on a holiday. ;) again nice to hear from you !! Keep the faith ! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by martinpetersen on Sep 7th, 2012, 5:49am Yeah, I really understand it must be so troublesome with these sensations. Well - just a shot in the dark - have you ever considered some of the alternative ways of healing, I think of techniques which deal with how our nerves work and/or how we think: Hypnosis, acupuncture, cranio-sacral-therapy, a.o. - who knows, maybe some of theses can change the ways the sensations travel round between your body and brain? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Sep 9th, 2012, 2:32am 7C504345585F615445544342545F310 wrote:
That really is a shot in the dark. None of the disciplines you mention are scientific or evidence-based. Accupuncture? I'd be willing to stick a load of pins in you for free if I thought it would help and save you the health lecture from an unqualified, non-professional "practitioner". I don't even know what Craniosacral therapy is, but is sounds like crap to me. The 1st line on the Wikipedia article states: Quote:
And if it's used by osteopaths, naturopaths, chiropractors and quacks, it must be BS. It wouldn't surprise me if homeopathy found its way in there somewhere. I don't know about hypnosis, but I think it's BS too. The respectable British magician Derren Brown uses a "psychological twist" in his acts. It's all showmanship and traditiional magic, but he often uses hypnotism as part of his shows and he claims that almost everyone is just playing along. He actually does many shows debunking psychics, mediums and other psychologial trickery like this. There's no reason to go down the alternative route. Why go for alternative, when there are proven treatments available in the standard route? The alternative route is filled with snake oil salesmen, lies, false claims and is actually quite dangerous to those with serious conditions. When I was really ill with Crohn's, I was desperate for a cure or treatment that worked aside from standard drugs. I went down the alternative route and tried herbs, diets and lifestyles and none of it worked. I must have been taking about 10 different herbal capsules a day and I'm just glad that most of that stuff doesn't work because if it had have been filled with active ingredients, it may have done some damage. I never fell for the accupuncture or homeopathy crap, that's just ridiculous; though I think there may be some evidence accupuncture has been used successfully for headaches and migraines (but really, just take some painkillers). |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Sep 9th, 2012, 6:24am Hi George I dont know if chiropractic things are BS. Is osteopathy BS.... I dont know I think Martin meant well and I thank him for that. We shouldnt get into a discussion like this particular one, cause it has no real use on this forum-site. All i want to say that all Western medicine isnt great either. As long as anti depressants are still the most prescripted pills in the world we are doing something wrong. I think the human body is more than meets the eye, and what works for person A sometimes wont work for person B. Although it should be working. there are people walking out of an hospital, just being thoroughly checked and they die on the parking lot just in front of that same hospital. I think we know many things in medicine, and the more we learn, the more we learn we dont know that much. I hear the things about vitamin pills , not nescessary to take in a normal healthy food intake.my docs say..even if I have a D deficit and B12 low normal values. We cant make vitamin C in our own body and so on..so I beg to differ with my doc... I think there is no money involved for the pharmaceutical companies so therefore vitamins are often described as bogus. The problem is in todays society you dont know who or what is right or wrong . too many opposing interests. The same in medicine unfortunately. In the end we have to take each they as it comes and be thankful that your healthy if your healthy. or at least also FEEL healthy. I should be healthy by most doctors I speak, yet I feel terrible physically. I´m in 24 hours of chest pain a day. week in week out. If I try to do something, even sometimes eat, or try to just stand up, my pain increases. my skin burns everyday.I feel weak, easily ill with colds, .. and yet people say I´m totally healthy physically . I quess I have to take Anti depressants also , cause I do feel terrible although doctors cant find out why. So its or thats called psychosomatic. So like I started.... is psychosomatic bullshit and just a word for sensations and symptoms doctors cant explain...or are they right !! I really dont know , I wish I knew, it would make my struggle much easier. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by martinpetersen on Sep 9th, 2012, 1:05pm George, I don't think you should put all the alternative stuff in one big trash can. You might be right that some or most of it is close to swindle and a lot might not be evidence based, that is "western-medicine"-evidence. But really: acupuncture is more that just stickin' pins in random places in people; the Chinese have uses this technique for 100s of years, and it does have an effect on some symptoms. As far as I know, among other things as painkiller and anaesteziser. Actually quite a few traditionally educated doctors have learned acupuncture and use it now and then. And I think that's interesting in this forum and when discussing Richie's and other people's symptoms. Because we are talking a lot about sensations, right? We sense palps, pains, burning or whatever. And we learn from RLR that once our hearts have been tested ok, these sensations are benign. And by realizing that, a lot of anxiety might be diminished. But still we FEEL these thing and they annoy us. Some of them can be explained (GI-system-vagus nerve-heart or axiety-vagus nerve-heart) But it's not easy to break these "chains", and since the nervous system is involved, since the brain with all it's "understanding" of pain and origin of pain is involved, why should we not try or experiment for instance with a technique like acupunture, which in some way must involve the nervous system, though the Chinese call it "medians". Maybe you're right, George, about the Cranio-Sacral-stuff :-) I actually tried it once, and, well I don't know excatly what it did, but one thing it actually did, was work as a method of relaxation. And relaxation is certainly one of many means to treat anxiety, so ... Why not see if some of these alternative techniques might help people with their benign but annoying symptoms? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Sep 9th, 2012, 1:49pm Well, why not? Because none of the claims made by the alternative medicine folks are supported by evidence. In order for one to make a claim that treatment A works for a given disorder, it must first be demonstrated that treatmeant A has efficacy in treating said disorder. One may not simply claim that treatment A works without first providing a reason why. That reason, actually reasons, comes in the form of research. That is to say, testing the treatment on animals with the disorder in question, measuring results, measuring symptoms, recording the data and building a case for the use of the treatment in humans. The case is then recorded in a medical journal where it can be peer reviewed and tested by other researchers in the field, which is where it either gets accepted or thrown out. The alternative stuff doesn't go through this rigorous process, so none of the claims can be substantiated. This is why it isn't to be trusted and should be avoided. If you truly believe that the claims you've made are fair and valid, please provide some trusted scientific journals where the treatment(s) and/or therapies named can be substantiated. If there is efficacy in any of them, there will be evidence to back up the claim. If the evidence exists, you'll find it in a scientific journal, so please find that information and post it. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by martinpetersen on Sep 9th, 2012, 2:08pm This is - as far as I can see - a medical performed study of the effects of acupuncture: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17237661 These are articles which in more general terms describe what acupuncture can do. http://acupuncturecourse.org.uk/acupuncture/patientnotes.html http://altmedicine.about.com/od/acupunctur1/a/acupuncture_pain.htm Doctors using acupuncture: http://www.modestopaindoctor.com http://www.foleyacupuncture.com These links might not provide the scientific evidence you are talking about, but at the least they show that quite a few, well trained and educated doctors and others use the technique of acupuncture and experience a certain degree of succes with it. Martin |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Sep 11th, 2012, 9:26am Well hello everyone! I hope you all are doing well. I just wanted to check in with a progress update. Since the last time I have written on here my wife and I had our 3rd child and first boy! Pretty exciting times as well as sleep deprived and very stressful. As you all know these too things, stress and lack of sleep, can make all of your symptoms run away and feel horrible. So I decided that I would look at these symptoms another way this time around.....instead of reacting and stressing that they were coming.....and come they did.....I just did nothing!!! I didnt react and I didnt fear that they were here.....did they still feel bad? Absolutely!!! But this time they did not grow and grow like they have in the past! I havent slept good in 3 weeks...I have palps all day everyday, feelings of dizziness, anxiety etc yet it bothers me about 50% less because I am not reacting!!! This is truly the answer....I have been in the OR when my son was born, had a ton of visitors and because my wife had a C Section I have been responsible for every need my two older daughters have....and yet I have been able to do it all because I JUST DONT CARE ABOUT MY SYMPTOMS ANY MORE. For those of you who still dont believe its anxiety....you will continue to struggle until you give up the fight! How do I know...because for 7 years I have fought tooth and nail against all of the feelings and trust me when I say I HAVE HAD THEM ALL. Let them go and get your life back....it will not happen over night or even in a months time....but it will happen! I will keep checking back in and updating you and wish you all the best in your conquest to get your lives back! Big Country |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Sep 11th, 2012, 12:33pm hi Big Country Again congrats with your 3rd born child and a SON!! great ! Also very good news you do better. I hope, I really hope you are right and it will get better!! keep the faith and hang in there |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Sep 11th, 2012, 12:38pm Richie...it is no longer hope : ) If you listen to RLR and read more and more about anxiety, its symptoms etc you will find out that what RLR has been telling us all along is the truth! We are doing this to ourselves....not disease. If you give up the battle you will win the war!!! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Sep 13th, 2012, 5:59am Add on Went through a tough night. I always have a painful dull chestpain..last night..Much pressure left chest ,arm, shoulder, feeling of weakness and like a glow that made me nausiated and like I was going to have a heart problem-attack. it came back 2 or 3 times in 2 hours. today it is still there. the dull heavy pain is under my arm pit left, and chest and arm left. sometimes it 's like the heavy pain and dullness goes away a bit, but when I lay down the problem increases again!! espescially laying on my back and even more on my right side the problem increases more and I get strange skipped beats and sometimes like I have some small coughprickles in my throat. I really dont understand what this about!!?? What does my laying down on your right side have to do with my heart?? I live with pain on my chest for 4.5 years now and it NEVER goes away. Just when I start to believe it maybe ok whatever I have. Anxiety or Roemheld or whatever.. something happens I never experienced like that before. How will I ever know where this come from? or is this also anxiety? And anxiety causes you permanent pain and sensations on your chest and never leaves in 4.5 years? If you live with pressure on your chest every day, and every day it increases to a level which becomes unbearable or at least not funny anymore, and you feel your heart, skip, or go way faster in the process, how can I keep convincing myself this is nothing more than anxiety? Shouldnt I had one or two good weeks or days than?? very low on moral at the moment. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Sep 14th, 2012, 8:43am WoW when I posted there were 20513 views and now we are at almost 20700+...what is everyone thinking when they come to this post? Is it helping, hurting? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Sep 22nd, 2012, 12:35pm Hi all, I'm still around, but I've become more of a lurker for the time being since I don't feel that I've been able to have any input. I don't really have any updates or anything with respect to my situation. All I can say is that I haven't changed from my previous position, which was a great improvement. I have almost no anxiety and symptoms now. I still feel the odd skipped beat now and then, but never pay attention to them anymore. In all honesty, I'm beginning to forget my troubles in the past. I can't fully recall the reasons why I believed I was improving and to be frank, I don't care to. I'm just happy that I no longer have panic attacks and incessant worries about things that just aren't real. I still find myself worried about certain things from time to time, but I don't feel the need for the reassurance of the forum anymore. I've just come to accept that I am fine and I am enjoying my health as best I can. No longer do I feel the dark cloud looming or the chains dragging. I wish I could share the secret with you all, but I don't think I'm able to articulate how I've come to be in this position. Suffice to say, with time I've been able to improve my primary factors, including Chron's disease, a very bitter and stressful home life and my life prospects. This has probably only improved my symptoms, so perhaps I've only just now fully accepted that anxiety is, as Dr. Rane said all along, just a symptom of something else. I'll try to be active, but I struggle to find things to say in this thread now, and would just take up time going over old things to no avail. I also hope that no one is going to see me as somehow magically and mysteriously escaping the trap. I think the key at least for me, is to forget a trap even exists; for in reality, it doesn't. Anyway, as I said, I'm still around regularly, I just don't know what else to say about this. Good luck everyone! We all have our own paths to walk. George. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Sep 24th, 2012, 9:46am George....great post!!! You may not think it but post from you like this are a BIG help! I am glad you are doing so well. I am getting there myself even though the road isnt a straight one! Keep posting when you can. Thanks Big Country |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Oct 2nd, 2012, 12:42pm The Anxiety Trick.... The toughest thing I think most of us go through is the thinking that we can control fear.....The Anxiety trick is feeling a sensation in the body then experiencing fear because of it. The point that most of us are at is well beyond this and now we have told our body so many times to be afraid of this feeling or feelings that is does it automatically! We cant control this initial fear and this is the most frustrating part of the whole thing. The sooner you realize that and shift from trying to control this automatic fear to working on your reaction and thought patterns to this fear the better you will recover from this anxiety. Instead of fighting non stop to avoid feeling this fear you need to feel it and then relax in to it! Make your body and mind understand that you have made a mistake and you are now working on correcting it. We spend too much time avoid it and being scared, disappointed etc when we do experience it rather than working with it and accepting it. This is the only way out. It is not an easy way....but it certainly is the only way out!!!! Big Country |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Oct 15th, 2012, 8:46am Just bumping this post because I think its way too important to fall back off the first page : ) Hope everyone is doing well! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Oct 29th, 2012, 7:27am Just a bump as I think this post is extremely important and has helped me tremendously in my venture back to sanity over these palps and anxiety : ) I hope everyone is doing well. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Oct 29th, 2012, 9:16am I thought I would update everyone on my progress with Palps and anxiety. Things have been progressing although not as fast as I would like : ) I have been able to do things I havent done in years with little or no anxiety and my mindset overall with these skipped beats is definietly shifting! I am MUCH stronger mentally towards my skipped beats overall. I think I am frustrated at how slow the process is but constantly remind myself that I have literally been scared to death for 7+ years so how could I possibly get over these things quickly! I dont let these things stop me from doing anything anymore...I still have anxiety and that is to be expected but it is reduced. I hope you all keep working hard mentally to get past these sill skipped beats! Bigcountry |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Oct 30th, 2012, 5:13pm Certainly glad to see you're making progress and it serves as testimonial for encouragement to others. Great work. I also once again make note of the number of views for this thread by contrast to the number of responses. Note that it exponentially outranks any other single thread in the history of the forum. There is an extremely significant element of insight here and I suggest that you make the effort to explore the reason. Best regards, Rutheford Rane, MD (ret.) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Oct 31st, 2012, 8:54am Thanks RLR...recovery is definitely a long road....or maybe I am making it longer than it needs to be but I find my habits on all levels that I have developed are very entrenched and breaking these habits seems to be the hardest part! Mentally I think is where I am making the most ground....physically I still feel myself tensing at the symptoms and I am working very hard on just letting them be as bad as they want and teaching my subconscious that there is nothing to be afraid of! Any words of wisdom for recovery would definitely be welcome! Big Country |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by martinpetersen on Oct 31st, 2012, 10:24am I also I have improved on the mental front. Palps don't scare me so much anymore. And for the time being I'm also better physically speaking. My symptoms become quite a lot reduced when I: 1: Don't eat and drink too much too late. 2: Take antacids when I feel "something's coming up". I believe now that acid is part of the problem for me. Even though I don't feel "burning sensations" often. - So for me it's definetely also a "digestive problem". Best of luck to all. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Oct 31st, 2012, 6:46pm Okay, "habits" which are detrimental are rarely examined and defined. They actually represent coping patterns which are most often a passive approach to life circumstances. In other words, they are rarely, if ever, are electively established by the individual and always produce outcomes that are mere relegation rather than anything purposely desired. In order to change life patterns, you must absolutely design and carry out active patterns or habits and above all, never disobey them. The self-motivation and discipline to strictly abide by these vital rules is where most people fail and it occurs for two primary reasons. The first is that the positive consequences are seldom perceived as immediate and the latency of such a reward schedule results in procrastination beyond the planning stage. There is a lot of thought given to the matter and even some effort may be directed toward change, but once results are not immediately observed, the power and drive to continue until the goal is met very often fades into the background. A good example of this tendency is seen in dieters. The true success which underlies dieting is not the diet plan at all, but rather a permanent change in lifestyle and eating habits. Most people look for an easy way around the circumstances and feel energized by purchasing exercise equipment, fad diet products, join the gym and buy books on the topic. All of this secondary effort quickly fades and the equipment ends up being sold or collecting dust in a corner and the other products wind up being a sore account of money not well spent, resulting in rebound weight-gain and emotional downturn. Anxiety, regardless of the focus, is neither a disease nor a disorder but merely a state of mind. It is the practice of engaging in constant anticipation of future consequences based largely upon irrational and inaccurate analysis. Emotional factors are relied upon to a greater extent than logic and the subsequent outcome of such analysis can produce outcomes capable of diminishing one's general outlook and thus, blunted motivation. In other words, constant peering into a future filled with nothing beyond a series of potentially negative outcomes alters one's present outlook and motivation to seize the day. Life must not be anticipated at a pace faster than it can be experienced much beyond any given moment. To do so is to deprive one's self of the most vital ingredient which gives life its force and will to thrive. You must establish a clear and definitive set of goals to change your life's direction, not a set of rules to try and rid yourself of negative thinking patterns. You can't unscramble eggs. You are misdirecting your efforts toward an outcome of the underlying problem rather than the problem itself. This common misconception usually manifests in the form of self-ultimatums. In other words, individuals so afflicted will often exclaim "I could get back to my life if only these darn symptoms would go away! If only these problems would subside, I could focus upon myself and make things better." In other words, "My problems must first go away before I can make the effort to change." The true problem is not the one you are presently contending, if you see the point here. It is critical for you to understand that changing your life patterns and goals results in the commensurate resolution of what you presently and incorrectly believe to be the problem, which in actuality is merely a secondary factor. The key here is to set your goals for the day, not the future. When you wake for the day, establish your goals and set out to meet them in the most successful manner possible. Once you become accustomed to making it a great day, you'll find it turns into a great week and then a great month. Before you know it, you'll be celebrating the New Year with the realization that it had been a good year. That's how life is really choreographed, not by sacrificing your day in anticipation of what might happen. You're suffering because you're choosing to miss out on the magic of the day by trying to peer into the future. You must draw your attention strictly to the day at hand and no further. You'll find that life fits together very nicely at such a pace. The best part is that the next day arrives and you get the chance to do it better than the day before. Life is but one chance. Whether you engage it or simply watch it go by, it will proceed in one direction only. Given the choice, which one will you choose each day you rise to meet it? Best regards, Rutheford Rane, MD (ret.) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bayroot on Nov 1st, 2012, 11:06am Hey guys, just to add my 2 cents to the conversation... One thing that helped me was when RLR responded to a young woman in her 20's about her concerns. She had an ECG and ECHO and RLR basically told her that she should be filled with a great sense of confidence, because heart disease takes decades to develop and that being in her 20's meant that she needn't even be concerned with her heart for the next 40-50 years. That filled me with great comfort because he obviously knows (from a professional, medical and factual point of view) that that is the case. So now most pains and palps that I get, I remind myself that I've probably got at LEAST 20 years of good heart health left since I'm only 27. Also, one thing I've noticed is that I know for sure what doesnt work 1) Worrying about symptoms 2) Trying NOT to worry about symptoms 3) Trying to ignore or push through symptoms Apart from some chest pain that I've had almost constantly for the last 15 or so hours, 95% of my days are now symptom free after 4 years of constant terror 24/7. And I've experienced everything in the book! (and even some thing that noone else has mentioned on any forum I've ever read) But the kicker is, I can't tell you HOW I'm symptom free. I'm literally not trying. And when I tell myself "ok, dont try, thats how you did it last time!" it doesnt work. So you can't try and pretend and ignore the symptoms, because then you focus on them more (because you have to give your concious attention to them to make sure youre still "ignoring") Its like telling someone not to think of a pink elephant. But you ALSO cant focus on the symptoms. You literally have to just stop. Because any effort at trying to "get on with life" is like trying not to try. Youre still trying. Its just that now your trying is based on trying not to try. You just have to literally almost surrender and say "well, this is what I am living with now. luckily i know that it will never hurt me" and you just have to fully accept the pain and palps etc. Like, dont try to get rid of them. But dont even make the effort to say "Im allowing them. Im letting them be". If you get nervous and upset, let yourself get nervous and upset. If youre feeling good, DONT by any means say to yourself "oh, im feeling good! its working! its gone". You just accept the moment for what it is. This is the only way I have moved from not leaving the sofa or even standing up for like months on end due to fear of having a heart attack, and getting to the point where not only am I regularly going out, but have also performed shows (im a guitar player) at venues like the 02 arena amongst others. I still get nervous, but I allow it. And when Im not nervous, Im not thinking about not being nervous. Im just there in that moment. So basically, my advice would be to just not be so hard on yourselves. Life isnt about being pain free and happy all the time. Life isnt about "NO PAIN" or "NO PALPS". Its about LIVING. So sometimes you live with pain and palps (like i am right now) and sometimes you dont. Simple as that. Dont TRY to be any way other than what you are right now in the moment. And ironically, once you have that attitude (but remember, you cant chase this attitude or ATTAIN it, its about NOT chasing or NOT attaining) then all your symptoms will vanish by themselves. I never thought I would make it to the point that Im at now :) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Nov 1st, 2012, 11:32am great post !!! I agree, try to not think about them or deny them....is actually giving it power denying and telling yourself not to fear your sensations is feeding the fear cause you link the sensation with fear. I do believe you just have to go through everything without putting any meaning on it. the way you described it is almost Buddha :) I hope I will ever get there..that state of mind. I keep believing my symptoms dont come from fear but I react upon them with fear and resistance. That I have pain and sensations I cant change, how I react upon them I can. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Nov 4th, 2012, 7:58pm Great post RLR!!! I agree habits are key to recovery.....I have been focusing on these habits more that anything else but I still struggle with implementation of new habits over the old. I still recoil at some of my symptoms all of the time....I have made great strides and do more things now then I have done in a long time but still struggle. I notice the habit of tensing too in this recoil....which changes my breathing etc and adds to the difficulties I have already. Do you have any recommendations on breaking these habits? Also what other habits can you discuss that are obvious in most people with anxiety that are detrimental to the recovery process? Thanks Big Country |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Chris on Nov 5th, 2012, 5:11am That's a great post by RLR. Thanks for keeping us updated with your progress BigCountry. I find that the fear of my heart is relatively low now. I have come to believe that I'm fine after all these years, they're a lot more common than I'd realised, and so I suspect I was simply wrong in my assumption. The trouble is, that the years which it has taken me to come to that realisation has lead to a lingering health anxiety. The stress which I put myself under when the palpitations first came to light lead me to numerous other issues. Constant tiredness, headaches, and the main one for me has been stomach problems. Cramps, indigestion, acid reflux, stool inconsistencies. I also have an inguinal hernia on both sides which is being operated on in January and which I'm fearful of the general anaesthetic, even though I've had it twice before about a decade ago! So whilst I'm pleased to report that my heart worries seem to be subsiding, my general levels of anxiety remain high. I believe deep down that it's because I have personal issues of my life's direction and the expectations of myself. I had grand plans growing up to get a job I loved, earn lots of money, go travelling. The reality has turned out a lot different - I have a dull 9-5 job, struggling through the recession to try to afford to own a house, let alone have enough left over to see the world. It came as a big disappointment to me and I'm struggling to prioritise. I feel that life is far too short to waste doing something I don't like. The trouble is, as with much anxiety, at this time I can't see a way out of this predicament. Best wishes to all. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Nov 15th, 2012, 8:41am Just a bump as I feel this post is the most important post on the site and will help most of the newbies especially if they read back through! I hope everyone is doing well! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Nov 19th, 2012, 12:50pm Just wanted to update everyone on my progress as of late! I am making huge strides with all aspects of my anxiety and palps...I have really worked hard in understanding everything the RLR has to say...not just with palps but with anxiety as a whole because they are truly one entity! I have jumped off the cliff with both feet and guess what...it is only 2 feet high! You have to trust 100% what RLR is saying! I had palps 10-15 a minute for years....anxiety so bad I was afraid to leave my house! No my palps have greatly reduced and even when I get them I am not scared....I still have anxiety and palps and I am treating them both the same way....with an I DONT CARE ATTITUDE!! I pay special attention to my habits and actions and notice that they are so automatic its scary. You need to become very self aware even to see them....once you start picking them out then you can start changing your behavior! Anxiety IS NOT A DISEASE BUT PURLEY A STATE OF MIND!!! Jump off the cliff folks!!! It is only 2 feet high! Life is too short to liveit with anxiety! AM I HEALED...not yet....but I am well on my way! Big Country |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Topo on Nov 19th, 2012, 2:52pm Yes...you're very accurate in that Life is Too Short. I have a huge reoccurrence of palps now, after panic attacks over an injury to my neck. My mind grabbed hold of me SO hard, as I struggled with the potential disabling effects of the injury. I would even create scenarios whereby the End is near. It's still a big challenge, but I'm working with meditation and have a minimally invasive surgery scheduled to repair my neck. It is very obvious that my stress induced the return of palps. It's also quite tricky to think that something is not really wrong with your heart when it skips a beat, and then thumps a bit. But, time and time again, RLR has demonstrated there should be no concern, other than getting hold of your mind. 232826222E342F353338410 wrote:
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Nov 26th, 2012, 10:35am Bump :) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bayroot on Dec 10th, 2012, 6:00pm (Please dont take offence to the tone of this post, I mean it with pure LOVE) I will just say this... WE AINT DEAD. We had the "symptoms". We survived. How much else could we have done in that time? If I had invested the 4 years of worrying about my heart into exercising I would have the best body right now! Or I could be a great piano player, lol... Life IS going to move on anyway. Every single person on this forum (god forbid something outside of phyiscal health happens) will be alive for a long time still. WE'RE ALIVE. It's best to enjoy the time you have. Think of these scenarios... 1) For the next 20 years you worry EVERY SECOND OF EVERY DAY. You live anyway. What a sad waste of time. 2) For the next 20 years you worry EVERY SECOND OF EVERY DAY. You were right and you die of a heart condition suddenly. What a sad waste of the last 20 years that you could have enjoyed by living freely and having fun. and then... 3) For the next 20 years you have loads of fun and live life to the max. You live anyway. What a great time. 4) For the next 20 years you have loads of fun and live life to the max. You were right and you die suddenly of a heart condition. What a great time. You see, whether you are sick or not (and this is just false, because none of you actually are sick) you only win by just having fun and enjoying life. NONE OF YOU ARE GOING TO DIE ANY TIME SOON (GOD FORBID SOMETHING OUTSIDE OF YOUR BODY HAPPENS). I AM PAST MY ANXIETY NOW AND YOU ARE ALL *EXACTLY* THE WAY I WAS. Let yourself believe it. No ironic force is going to pop up and say "WELL, SINCE YOURE SO COCKY ABOUT NOT HAVING A HEART ATTACK, IM GONNA LAY ONE ON THICK!!! ALAKAZAAAAM!!!". Sorry for the joke, but it's nice to have humour around here :) Try this experiment... Tell yourself right now in your head "I WILL NOT DIE TODAY, I DONT HAVE HEART PROBLEMS AND I WONT HAVE A HEART ATTACK". It will be scary, after the first couple of seconds (if youre anything like me) your mind will say "OK OK IM SORRY, I DONT KNOW THAT, PLEASE, I DIDNT MEAN IT. SPARE MY LIFE! HONESTLY, I MAY OR MAY NOT...IM NOT BEING COCKY, I APPRECIATE MY LIFE..." And then do the same tomorrow. And the next day. Soon you will realise that whatever THOUGHTS were going on in your head, the reality is that you didn't die. To the people who have had anxiety for decades...the first day you got the anxiety you thought you would die then and there. That was DECADES AGO and youre still alive!! You have spent decades in false beliefs. Doesn't that show you whats causing the problems? I thought for SURE, no....i KNEW for sure I was going to die for years ago. Right there and then. 100% I was convinced. And many other times. Guess what... I AINT DEAD. Anxiety is very complicated. But it's also very simple. The complexity of it is that it is SO simple that we can't accept that it is. We want it to be complicated. I love you all and I feel your pain. I'm glad to say that you are all fine and healthy. I would even place a large bet on the fact that noone on this forum will die from heart related problems for the next 20-30 years. Bless all your (perfectly functioning and lovely) hearts, and good health. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by RLR on Mar 7th, 2013, 5:54pm 37, 036 visits to this thread thus far, more than all other threads combined and yet it remains unanswered. I carry it forward once again and ask you if such a premise doesn't strike you as extremely unusual. Look at the number once again. 37,036. The premise of this single thread is more critical than any other on the forum. N'er force me to see, for what lies there lends preference for blindness instead. Best regards, Rutheford Rane, MD (ret.) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George88 on Mar 8th, 2013, 1:11am I want this thread to continue, but I don't feel I have anything more to contribute. I have no more insights and don't feel as if I am able to present anything of benefit that I haven't already posted. I feel at the moment all I am able to do is reiterate sentiments of the others and of my own. In doing so, all I would be doing is re-treading old ground that we've already covered and not searching for something new. You have said time and time again this thread does not require your intervention, but for me at least guidance is still necessary to find the answer. When I read your post stating the answer is still unfound, I can't help but picture some secret place just around the corner where we're all going to meet, free of anxiety. I know this isn't going to happen, and that there is no single thing we can all do to magically discover the resolution to our problems. I feel out of place in this thread at the moment. Maybe I'm expecting something unrealistic? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George on Mar 8th, 2013, 2:10am Alright, I'll take a stab at this once more and see if I can uncover something with my ramblings. So this thread has more visits than any other thread in the history of the forum, and percentage wise has very little replies. 37,083 views and only 368 replies across 982 days or 2 years, 8 months, 8 days. This is approximately 0.99%. Maybe it would be a good idea to present some facts and assumptions here. Facts (things we know are true): 1. Many people have viewed this thread 2. Not many people have replied to this thread Assumptions:
I think the actual percentage of people who reply is more than 1% since many of us who regularly visit/visited this thread have increased the number of views. I don't know how many views each individual has incurred, so I won't bother guessing the real percentage. Suffice to say, it's higher than 1%. Why do so many people read this thread but never bother taking part? Possibilities:
1. Quick fix Perhaps the average visitor to this thread is the type of person who wants to find the answer to their problems, but is too lazy to go out and try searching for the the answer. Maybe they want to come to the forum, get their daily dose of reassurance, and move on knowing they can come back any time they need relief and will probably find some solace. 2. Scared It may be that the readers of this thread are those that know they have problems, but due to their anxiety are too scared to delve deeper into their lives to begin a quest for resolution. They might be scared of discovering something terrible or frightening, or may be scared to release the skeletons form the closet, so to speak. Perhaps they're too scared to leave their current situation for the unknown that awaits them. 3. Don't care Some people who have anxiety may be so focused on escaping, they don't even care what the cause of the problem is. It may be something unimportant in their lives and all they want to do is find the answer, so are unable to contribute to the forum since they have nothing to say, and are waiting for someone to reveal the secret. 4. Denial Readers may be in denial about a possible anxiety disorder or problem in their lives, and may feel that if they begin taking part in the thread, this act is somehow an admission of weakness. It could be that these readers are so in denial, they actively avoid any act of admission and therefore lurk on the forum reading the stories and experiences of others, but never sharing their own. In doing so, fooling themselves into believing they have no problems. This is closely related to point 2 (being scared). 5. There is no problem Unlikely, but possible. I think this one can be ruled out. I'll point out now that I have been in some of the above situations myself. First denial, then a quick fix and then being too scared to actually find the answer in case something was actually discovered to be wrong with me. It would be unfair to apply my own experiences to everybody with anxiety, but I think it is fair to say we all share some key aspects, such as fear. The other possiblities are purely suppositions that may be playing a role. I can't really perform any original research to discover the truth other than asking question on this forum, so perhaps these aren't even part of the equation. Perhaps the reason why no one posts is a combination of the above (and others)? I'm under the impression that, for the time being, we should forget about the fact we have anxiety, and focus our efforts on answering the question: why do so few people respond to this thread? Keep the posts coming. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Mar 8th, 2013, 3:24am its a great thread. But not one problem or palp is the same. not one man is the same What helps for one person, doesnt do anything for another. not every palp is due to the same cause. so you want to know yours !!! medication A helps in person A but not in person B. the problem is. there is no GENERAL answer. therefore people keep getting occupied with their symptoms as long as they have them. sure one person accepts it much faster and goes on. feeling as crappy as the other one that needs more reassurance. Person A feels better mentally cause he refuses to worry. but thats all. he still has palps.. so he doesnt worry.. but has symptoms. so where's the anxiety in that? Is he still anxious but doesnt say so or does anxiety has nothing to do with it? I know enough people with palps and so on. some say they bother, some say they dont care. quess what..they all have them. so it must be physical , or not? offcourse people want their symptoms to go away.they are not lazy..more the opposite. if we havent had the symptoms or think about them this side wouldnt exist. and no one would be here. to answer the basic question RLR asked. 1 in 3 develops cancer.. more than 1 in 3 die of heart problems. in the USA alone more than 600.000 people die of heartattacks and failure.. and only ( way to much offcourse) 42000 in traffic. so that answers the question for the most part. Also we do have the assumption that while drving yourself you do have a bit of control. with all respect most deaths in traffic occur in the age 15-24 and above 75. often due to way to hard driving and alcohol. or people being to old and dont have the reflexes anymore. so being in my 40's not drinking and driving to hard I beat some more odds. the chance of getting seriously ill is way more a probability by pure chance. and in both cases you are dependent also on others. other people on the road are a factor. you dont control it all by yourself. the same with illnesses or sensations. we cant control it ourself. we need our doctors to be thorough and dont make any mistake. one mistake can be fatal. and you just darn well dont want it to be you or someone you love.. its not that simple my friend |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George on Mar 8th, 2013, 5:08am 372C262D2C20450 wrote:
I don't want to know the cause of my palpitations, actually. In all honesty I couldn't care less anymore what's causing them because I know I don't have any heart problems. You're right of course, not every palpitation is the same but that's an irrelevant point. In the absense of a heart disorder, palpitations are benign. We know this as a matter of fact, not opinion. Therefore the cause of palpitations is not of concern and no energy should be wasted thinking on the matter. You're also wrong when you say "What helps for one person, doesnt do anything for another". The fact is, when it comes to medicine, what works for one person, generally works for another. Otherwise medicine would be an art form and not a science. Our biology is pretty much identical to every other human on the planet, and only a very small percentage of our genome is unique to each individual. To extend the point further, take alcohol as an example. When you drink alcohol, you invariably end up drunk. This is not something that only a few of us can experience, it happens to all of us. Being drunk is a chemical process and the reason it happens to every single person who drinks is because our biochemical make-up is the same. Therefore, if something is affecting your biochemistry, it's going to affect mine as well. Of course I am willing to accept that some people do not respond to drugs as well as others, and some do not respond at all, but these are exceptions to the rule. I am also willing to accept that psychologically, not every non-medical therapy will have the same results for everybody, but this does not mean we've all got our own individual answers secretly waiting for us somewhere. We share a common problem, and will also share a common solution. 372C262D2C20450 wrote:
There has never been a debate regarding this issue. Palpitations are a physical event, in every sense of the word. That doesn't mean they can't be promoted by non-physical elements of life, such as mental stress and anxiety. Dr. Rane has explained in the past that palpitations arising from stress and anxiety are the result of increased sympathetic tone, or an increase in activity of the "fight or flight" part of human neurology. In turn, increasing the nerves potential to fire at any given moment, which when intercepted by the heart causes the palpitation event. So yes, they are very much a physical manifestation. 372C262D2C20450 wrote:
You're not taking the full story into consideration. Sure, many people die from heart attacks every year, but were you aware that most of them are aged 65 an above, and most of them were caused by poor diet, weight and lifestyle? Effectively making them self-induced. The NHS (UK health service) websites states that: Quote:
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2012/02February/Pages/heart-attack-symptoms-gender.aspx. Don't take this the wrong way or anything, but when I read your posts I can't help but feel they're laced with paranoia, fear and anxiety. You are one of those people in severe denial. Doctors can't find anything wrong with you, Dr. Rane doesn't think anything is wrong and more importantly, after all this time with your symptoms... you're still here worrying about it all. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Mar 8th, 2013, 5:26am offcourse you are right about that.. age and terratogenes. but still there are far more deaths due to illnesses.. i only answered the question. and try to tell why people maybe do or dont answer at this thread. and if you answer to anyone the same as to me in your last words to me in your posting..no one will ever try to say anything.. cause they dont want to be ridiculed.. i really dont understand your last sentence. Everyone who is still posting here I could tell the same as you accuse me from. Its almost funny . it seems that you mistake YOUR feelings about me, as a fact. i'm not in denial. Its you who thinks i'm in denial. What you think is subjective and has no meaning whatsoever. I cant defend myself for your emotions about me. I really even dont know why you want to say this to anyone, only than to try to put me down. Not every doctor says i'm ok.. its you and in your opinion RLR who says that doctors didnt find anything. thats not true. I wrote RLR some Pm's about what went on and asked him for advise. Unfortunately he wont answer. probably because he feels the same as you describe . I'm the idiot in denial :-) just maybe i'm not in denial. and maybe my questions are legit. I thought that the purpose of this side was to help people, not to tell them they are some neurotic in denial hypochondriacs. ( let me please give my subjective feeling about this statements) :-) but FYI i'm still in the process of..espescially after more problems arised lately. I never ever would say to anyone he has no health issues.. cause you simply dont know !!! if you were right everyone could do with one posting here.. and even zero postings..just reading could and would be enough. I cant help having symptoms..and i certainly cant help you or like you mention RLR, are thinking that i have nothing and therefore wont answer questions or have to come back or consider that there might be more than first met the eye. you can ask for help and explanation and try to help one another if possible. My heart is ok..i quess.. but neurological..we wait and see. paranoia? Its you who thinks people are paranoia. the fact you think that states your very paranoia about people who could be paranoia :-) Come on my friend. You have had better ending of postings than this. ;) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George on Mar 8th, 2013, 5:42am Alright, look: your whole reply was based on my closing sentence, ignoring the bulk of my message. I'm not accusing you of anything, nor implying I know your situation. All I'm saying is that personally, when I read your posts, I sense denial, paranoia, fear and anxiety, regardless of whether or not this is the case. In the past you have posted your medical findings from the doctors who you have visited and claimed they could find nothing wrong with you. RLR has also stated he feels no sinister problems are looming. Your very sentence "i'm still in the process of..espescially after more problems arised lately. " says to us all that you're in denial and are paranoid about something happening in the future. You also said "but neurological..we wait and see", but a professional retired neurologist has told you that your symptoms (from what I can remember) don't match any known disease and that your problems lie elsewhere, yet you choose to ignore these posts and continue on with your own theories. You are of course unwilling to change your position, claiming that no one can know. With respect to your accusations regarding me trying to put you down and being paranoid myself, I can only say you've misinterpreted my post. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Mar 8th, 2013, 5:54am amazing so while i have to wait you already say again ' parnaoia denial' and so on:-) so if someone have to have under go tests due to symptoms, you already say.DENIAL.nothing wrong :-) Again,this says more about you than me. I will never do this to someone. RLR indeed gave his opinion. I even asked him about the new things developing and how to approach this. So I do value what he thinks. unfortunately no answer.now i know why. i'm in denial and paranoia. and I'm the only one in the world who cant have an illness developing or a physical problem now or in the future. ::) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by George on Mar 8th, 2013, 6:11am Well, I'll leave you to continually ponder your own situation and say nothing more. I'm here to discuss the question previously asked, not enter debate regarding your personal situation, your opinion regarding me or any other individual and will not continue to entertain strawman arguments such as the ones you present. Please do not respond to this post. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on Mar 8th, 2013, 6:16am more humor. please read again. it was you who couldnt let go and imply your personal feeling about someone. and now you want me not to respond Who do you think you are? :o ;D I wish you all the best my friend |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bayroot on Mar 9th, 2013, 2:44am My opinion... The media pumps us full of fear re: health everywhere we go. Posters, commercials, tv programmes etc. all about our health, and telling us about tragic situations where people die. We are bombarded. However, I have never seen a commercial about driving safely, or any program about car crashes. You never read about them in the paper. If most car crashes were reported in the media noone would ever drive again. There are so many per day, but that is why they are not reported, because its so common. Health problems are a bit less likely so when they happen they get front page news. Ie. People barely ever die from the problem we worry about, so when they DO happen, it makes the news. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by martinpetersen on Mar 10th, 2013, 10:15pm "There ain't no cure, there ain't no cure, there ain't no cure for" ... palps. Palps are like mice in the house of the body. (NOT rats; the doctors ruled those out ...) Mice come at day, they come at night, you can put up traps and worry and make plans of how to catch them, they come back. You can reduce their number by not directly inviting them in (reduce your stress, eat healthy ...), you never can tell where they come from; the fields, the streets, the attic ...? But they won't make your house break down. The sounds of them at night are disturbing, and their little droppings frustrate your aestethic mind, but after all they are ... just mice. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 17th, 2013, 7:39am Just wanted to move this back to the top....I think this conversation is extremely valuable and sometimes it gets too far back in the pack..... Palps are very hard for people to understand because they deal with the heart! One of the things I always concentrate on is the fact that we have activated our Sympathetic Nervous system because no matter what people tell us we have an incredible fear that one of these times our heart is going to fail and we will die.....so we live in this constant state of fear! ITS THE CONSTANT STATE OF FEAR which I believe is the issue for most if not all of us. RLR ask a question at the beginning of this about driving a car......none of us has a constant fear of driving a car even though it is VERY DEADLY according to the statistics. But most of us feel we can control driving a car which RLR also proves to us isnt the case. I guess my point is we need to somehow convince our brain and every ounce of our being that the palps are not harmful....which RLR has told us.....and then truly believe and get on with our lives. So many of us have been on this site for years suffering.....we have never fainted, never died, never had really anything happen to us other than the horrible symptoms of anxiety that are self induced caused by our heart flopping around which is mainly caused by our anxiety! I have been so much better over the last 6 months because I just do what I want to do...I still get some anxiety from my palps from time to time but I am working hard on taking the power they hold on me away. We can beat these things and go enjoy our lives!!! :) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Drempel on May 20th, 2013, 5:17am It took me some days to read all the posts in this thread but I must say this journey gave me a clearer view on what the real problem is. It convinced me not to look at the symptoms but rather look at the root cause. Although I still don't know the exact cause I do have the feeling I’m getting closer. My therapist told me that I don’t accept myself not to be perfect. Although I can relate to that partly I still don’t feel totally convinced. For example: I had a panic attack the night after I started using heartburn medication. (I had the feeling that my heartburn caused the palpitations). That whole week I felt anxious and nervous. Only after stopping with the medicine the panic attacks and nervous feeling stopped. Might it be that taking medicine is just something I don't want because it tells me I’m not perfect? |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on May 21st, 2013, 8:36am Well since I posted my last post a day or so ago this one Thread has received 200+ views : ) I always wonder why so many views and so little involvement just like RLR says. But I think I know why....everyone is looking for that key phrase or piece of information that will heal them overnight. I know I was searching for many years for just that sort of thing but never found it. What I found here is piece of mind and truly started believing what RLR, a doctor for more years than I have been alive, and numerous other doctors have been telling me. I think the most important thing we all need to realize is that there is nothing wrong with us. We have activated our sympathetic nervous system and instead of it giving us some other stress related symptom it gives us palps.....now that we have palps we stay in this horrible cycle either forever or until we have the courage and tenacity to go out and get our lives back. Trust in your body to heal itself if you are willing to relax and go back to living your life!!! Do not add fuel to the fire that is burning inside you! Stand up and tell yourself that you will no longer be afraid of a skipping heart and in time your nervous system will calm and these will slow down in frequency and may even go away! I have had a tremendous reduction just n the last 6 months by taking this route : ) Hope this helps!! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by martinpetersen on May 21st, 2013, 3:29pm You're right: let's not be afraid of the now-and-then-odd-beating of our healthy hearts. That probably might help. I think so too. But also: Let's not deny that many of these odd beatings do make many of us uneasy and fills us with discomfort as long as they last. They are nothing to be afraid of; true, but they are not "nothing". And just saying "forget them", might make some people who can't forget them becuause they feel bad, quite lonesome - if they think everybody else can disregard them just like that. And maybe - for some of us - even though they are not dangerous in any way and can not even be regarded as disease - they will stay with us forever. I hope to get use to mine - sort of on a higher level :-) |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by richie on May 24th, 2013, 9:06pm I will ask this here. Anyone knows if RLR is ok Been weeks when he was online |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Pamela on May 27th, 2013, 3:07am Drive a car daily. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Drempel on Jun 4th, 2013, 4:06am I'm starting to see a link between my palpitation and stress. Even more after I had a week without palpitation when I was occupied with something I find very intresting. After I was less occupied they started to come back again. Recently I've asked my therapist why these palpitations happen out of the blue. Atleast for me they do / did. He explained to me that these palpitation can happen when you feel one of the 5 basic emotions (sad, angry, scared, happy, embarrassed). I asked him because the week before I once again was experiencing these palpitation while talking to my girlfriend. She asked be why websites were able to exist on the internet and how the internet works. I'm an IT consultant so was able to explain to her exactly how this works. During my explanation I felt a couple of palpitations and couldnt make the link between my explanation and stress. Just after my conversation with my therapist and his explanation of the basic emotions I saw the link. Namely; During my conversation with my girlfriend I asked myself several times if I was explaining myself clearly to her. However, there are still some other occasions were i'm not able to reasure myself. For example when bowing, drinking water or taking a deep breath. I cant explain to myself why they happen and apparently I find it difficult to just accept it. |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by bigcountry on Jun 4th, 2013, 8:14am Bowing, Drinking water and taking a deep breath are all things that activate the vagus nerve! If you read back in many of the post from RLR he explains these types of things in great detail....absolutely nothing to worry about! |
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Title: Re: Here's a Question for All of You Post by Pamela on Jun 10th, 2013, 1:32am I'm new here and posted a response to this thread saying that I daily drove a car. I was trying to get my posting numbers up so as not to be thought a scammer and I actually thought the thread was as simple as it first appeared. I've now read the thread through. It seems plain to me why so many view it and so few post in it. It is a very intense thread. The people who post in it are very articulate. Very articulate people intimidate those who are less so. Most people aren't that interested in other people's problems except insomuch as they can throw light on their own problems. Lots of people here only want the doc's insights. The doc has told you that palpitations are an expression of anxiety. He and others have given advice on how to help this particular physical expression of anxiety (palpitations) by breathing, splashing cold water on eyes, elevating legs, holding the nose and trying to breathe out etc. He has explained about the vagus nerve. You may as well have social phobia, ibs, ocd - maybe you do - but the problem is anxiety, not one of its physical manifestations. However it is good to learn tips to deal with your particular manifestation. Take the tips away and then turn to your anxiety. If you are waiting for anxiety treatment use some anxiety tips in the meantime like deep breathing, exercise, trying to stop the dreaded rumination. Well I'm 66 and have had palps and anxiety and bouts of depression all my life, so I'm no better than anyone else, but I can testify to the fact that you're not going to die of palpitations or take any physical harm from them. Pamela |
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