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Heart Palpitations Forum >> Symptoms and other concerns >> Frequent urination
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Message started by martinpetersen on Aug 18^th, 2011, 5:30am

Title: Frequent urination
Post by martinpetersen on Aug 18^th, 2011, 5:30am

As I now and then get frequent urination along with palps (which makes it feel more annoying than "usual"), I found this site on the net:

http://www.afibbers.org/faq.htm

That makes me ask two questions here:

1. Can frequent urination be a benign follow-up of benign palps, or does it point to atrial fibrillation?
(I have been ecg'd and holtered and have had bloodtests twice during the last year, all came out ok.)

2. Can atrial fibrillations be caught on an ecg, even if it is "not there" while the ekg is performed?

Martin

Title: Re: Frequent urination
Post by Annie UK on Aug 19^th, 2011, 2:01pm

I was interested in your post. I have been having long, regular periods of palpitations since June. I like most others find them extremely distressing . They often happen in the evening and at night keeping me awake for most of the night and leaving me exhausted next day. These palpitations are accompanied by the frequent need to visit the toilet. When I mentioned this to a doctor she dismissed it as totally unconnected and irrelevant. I was therefore very interested to see that someone else also experienced this and that it is mentioned on the Hans Larsen site. I have had the palpitations investigated and been told that they are 'not sinster '. However after one very bad bout I ended up in A and E where 12 hours after the incident, raised troponin levels were found in my blood indicating a ' mild heart event ' I am also one of the sufferers who often find the palpitations linked to gas and bloating although I eat carefully and cautiously. I do have an artificial aortic valve replacement. My doctor has suggested I take Flecainide. I am reluctant as it seems to have loads of side affects. Anyone else take it with sucess ? I would like to try to do something positive without taking serious drugs. Annie UK

Title: Re: Frequent urination
Post by martinpetersen on Aug 20^th, 2011, 12:12am

Anyway, nice to hear I'm not alone with this :-)

As for the Flecainide I can certainly understand that you hesitate. As for any medicine you can read both pro and contra for this. But of course that's an issue between you doc and you.

I've only tried metoprolol (betablocker) against palpitations, it didn't help much if any, and when I wanted to stop using it, I got a lot of palps because I didn't phase it out slowly enough.

Good luck!

Title: Re: Frequent urination
Post by RLR on Aug 20^th, 2011, 4:03am

Okay, there is no association between benign palpitation events and frequent urination. What is actually happening is that air or gas in the lumen of your intestines is causing pressure against the outer bladder wall and stimulating the stretch receptors which induce urination. The same GI circumstances typically increase the potential for benign palpitations to occur as well, so although both events are occurring proximally in time, they have a common factor related to GI issues rather than each other.

Atrial fibrillation must be seen on ECG to differentiate it from any other variation in rhythm and there are no pre-existing or underlying sequelae that would otherwise identify the presence of the dysrhythmia.

Just as an anecdote, you do realize that Mr. Hans Larsen is not a physician. He holds a master's degree of science in chemistry according to his suffix. The information regarding lone atrial fibrillation as it appears on the website link provided is a rather bit of mix and match between facts and non-clinically supported information. While anyone can author a text, there is an unavoidable separation between texts that are purely informative on topics from those directly relevant to the author's profession and experience. The information would also hint at the prospect of Mr. Larsen possibly dabbling in chelation as it relates to holistic or charismatic practices.

The reference also begs the question of whether you have actually experienced lone a-fib, or PAF, as a consequence of documented clinical diagnosis or whether you believe some of your episodes of benign palpitations to actually be vagal-induced a-fib. If you suspect the latter, it's very important to realize that a-fib is not as subtle as one might imagine and would never be confused with benign palpitation events by even the unseasoned clinician.

Best regards and Good Health

Title: Re: Frequent urination
Post by martinpetersen on Aug 20^th, 2011, 5:04am

Hi RLR.

Thanks for your quick answer.

Yes, I do realize that Hans Larsen is a lay person, but still I found it interesting that he mentioned that:
"... Frequent urination (every 20 minutes or so) often occurs during the early phase of an episode and is due to the release of atrial natriuretic peptide from the fibrillating atria ..." (I don't know what his source of this is, is this not true?)

Although I have absolutely no reason to believe that I suffer from atrial fibrillation, the question that came up to me was: Could the mentioned natriuretic peptide as well as by a-fib be released due to certain benign palpitation events, some of which are induced into the atria? That was where I saw a possible association.
And I have "experienced" this association many times, because it certainly feels like this: 1: An extra beat or two occur. 2: I have to go to the toilet 4 times an hour for the next hour or two. And that is due to the fact that a lot of urine is being produced, not just a "nervous feeling". That I know :-)
And it is a quite annoying thing, especially if it happens while you are in public transport, busses, airplanes and so on ...

(Fortunately the frequent urination episodes only happen maybe 1 out of 10 times I get palpitations, and mostly if these feel "strong").

Can the stretch-receptors you mention really cause such a sudden and big rise in urineproduction?

Of course this could be due to a common factor lying behind: the trapped air in the lumen of the intestines, I understand that, but strangely enough the frequent urination-thing ONLY appear following or at the same time as palpitations, never "by itself". Whereas the palps easily can occur without any frequent toilet-running.

Anyway, enjoy your weekend!

Title: Re: Frequent urination
Post by RLR on Aug 20^th, 2011, 5:48am

Martin,

There is no association between the onset of vagally-induced benign palpitation events and the discharge of atriopeptin, or natriuretic peptide because the events are insufficient to induce atriopeptin release.

The release of atriopeptin occurs during the continuum of a-fib and patients often experience frequent urination among other symptoms and occurs because of other changes consequential to the action induced on the chamber walls of the atria. Volumetric load is decreased by action of the atriopeptide on the renin angiotensin system that subsequently induces micturitiion. Again, this is a consequence of sustained a-fib.

There are many reasons for urinary frequency, most of which are benign and several of the most relevant here would be factors related to GI status and those related to increased parasympathetic tone as a consequence of anxiety, which can also produce the sudden urge to urinate. The associated volume would, in this instance, be subjective since it can't actually be measured.

If you nevertheless feel that a connection might exist, you can always request to have a B-type natriuretic peptide level performed if such a rare opportunity would exist where benign palpitations and any associated urinary frequency might present themselves in the clinical setting.

Again, however, I myself see no potential for association in that regard and would place my own suspicions on factors related to anxiety.

Best regards and Good Health

Title: Re: Frequent urination
Post by martinpetersen on Aug 20^th, 2011, 6:22am

Thanks a lot for the info!
Martin

Title: Re: Frequent urination
Post by lorie topinka on Nov 13^th, 2011, 9:09pm

Martin,

I was searching for links between A-fib and frequent urination and found this forum and your messages. I, too, have many nights where I am up for a least 2 hours with frequent urination and what I think is a-fib. I can't sleep well when this happens. Had some very long episodes recently.

Keep in touch.

Lorie