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Another Q for RLR.... Please! (Read 14777 times)
Dickyboy199
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Another Q for RLR.... Please!
Feb 13th, 2007, 10:30am
 
Hi RLR,

Thanks again for your replies to my whining on and on about this new weird rhythm, short runs, ectopics in a row, irregular runs or whatever else I can think of calling them!

I know now from what you have told me that fundamentally these runs of ectopics are merely ectopics as I have previously experienced for the last 23 years but are now presenting mainly in a row of 3, 4, 5 or sometimes as many as 30.  Sometimes every other beat or sometimes with more 'normal' beats in between.

I also know that a lot of factors have changed in my body, I've got older, I've put on weight, I've stopped taking BB's and have stopped exercising altogether since these runs started almost 3 years ago.  

My anxiety level has dropped significantly and I am accepting them since you allayed most of my fears.  But the only thing that I don't understand is why are they becoming so frequent?  Having noticed this happen for the first time 3 years ago with a frequency on average of once every 3 or 4 weeks to now 1 to 3 times every day!  I don't hardly have any isolated ectopics anymore, just runs of them.  

Even though I am not focussing on them they are still increasing in frequency and I am concerned that eventually I will be experiencing them every minute of the day!!  Bearing in mind I have got used to them to a certain extent and have started to try and accept them why would they be getting worse and why would these runs be the majority of ectopics I experience when for 20 years all I would ever get was isolated ones?

I know I'm sort of asking the same questions as before but with a belief now that these are still benign I still don't understand why I would get a run of them everytime instead of just one here and there occasionally??  Also I don't think I mentioned in previous posts but nearly everytime now I get a run of them I get really hot as if I have a temperature.  Logically I know that this could just be anxiety but again this is new and I have only started experiencing this in the last few weeks.

In your experience have you ever seen a case where isolated ectopics, even frequent ones have turned into runs of ectopics and have you any ideas why? Also I have read before on the internet that a TEE, which I had 3 years ago, can cause irregular heartbeats.  Could this have caused the change in the ectopics I experience?

Thanks again for your valuable time, concern and amazing patience you have for all of us on here.  It must feel like you are banging your head against a brick wall sometimes as we all seem to keep asking the same questions!  But you of all people will know just how annoying these nasty thing are and when they seem to get worse or change it can be quite frustrating when nothing seems to change the symptoms.  Your replies and advice are very much appreciated by me and by all on this forum.  By the way may I ask are you a cardiologist and do you practice in the uk?

Best wishes

Rich

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RLR
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Re: Another Q for RLR.... Please!
Reply #1 - Feb 13th, 2007, 2:48pm
 
Well, I'm an old and tired neurologist from the U.S., although the UK does at times seem very inviting purely from a scenic point of view. As for whining, I never perceive such to be the case with patients regardless of the nature of the complaint. Okay, let's take a look at your concerns:

If you're referring to a transesophageal echogram, then the potential for this procedure to have caused a long-term change in status is quite remote. While the procedure can cause events during the course of diagnostics, it's not been known to have lingering effects in my experience.

It's not uncommon for benign palpitations to change their presentation over time relative to the degree of environmental stress one may be experiencing. I am naturally unable to determine the level of stress you may be experiencing, but I can tell you that the anxiety associated with healthcare concerns is quite remarkable indeed and patients rarely state they "feel" anxious. Nevertheless, its consequences can be very broad and thorough in the ability to influence the nervous system.

In cases where patients experience what appears to be multiple episodes, more common than you may realize, then pharmaceutical intervention for the short term may be wise to help you gain a better emotional foothold on the disorder. Atenolol in the 25 to 50mg range is an excellent choice and at low doses, does a wonderful job in regulating heart rate, but in addition also has a mild anxiolytic effect that helps reduce symptoms relative to labile parasympathetic responses that tend to permit the Vagus nerve to over-respond to the heart. It is not a very invasive drug and unless you're diabetic, then it's a great choice to help relieve symptoms until you've conquered your fears about the presence of the disturbances. Also, depending upon whether you're experiencing GI symptoms, then getting it under control will help reduce the occurences as well.

In any event, it's important for you to understand that regardless of the number of events, they are not doing damage whatsoever, nor will they ever be tantamount to a cardiac event. I've never even heard of such a case in more than 40 years of practice, so that should shed some light on the odds that something bad might happen. It's just not the case. I realize that they frighten you and more lately have come to represent an all out nusiance. Trust me that patients have gone to great lengths to express their particular hatred and frustration with me.

As for feeling "hot" you have to realize that Vagal stimulation is through and through, meaning that it just doesn't affect the heart when it occurs, but rather the signal can transduce to any other area innervated by the Vagus nerve. This is why some patients report coughing sometimes when the events occur, because the Vagus nerve also innervates the larnyx and the sensation can draw forth a cough impulse. Any change is homeostasis, or normal operating procedures by the body, can induce changes in sensory factors. Rapid changes in blood pressure and circulation can make one feel hot and often feel pressure around the ears. The body is merely responding to bring the body back to its normal state.

The entirety of your symptoms appear to rest within the realm of autonomic fluctuations as a consequence of emotional anxiety. You've undergone diagnostic tests with a clean bill of health, so again, while the disturbances are most bothersome, they do not indicate the progression to any serious event at all. I would discuss the use of atenolol with your physician and also make certain that your thyroid values, including an antibody titre, are normal. You're going to be just fine.

Best regards and Good Health

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Dickyboy199
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Re: Another Q for RLR.... Please!
Reply #2 - Feb 16th, 2007, 6:31am
 
Hi RLR,

You poor tired old thing you!  I bet your not really that old.  Thanks again for your swift response to my post.  I wish I could reply quite as quick as you do but everytime I get 5 mins either at work or at home something crops up or one of my children wants my attention!  Then the other night when I had a spare hour or two the website was down!  Typical.

Anyway thank you for giving me even more insight into the ectopic runs I am experiencing.  I've got to admit that I am not feeling quite so bothered about them now and that's directly from your posts that have reassured me, so thank you again for that.  In fact the other night I was lying on my back on the sofa and I felt an ectopic, then a few beats later another one and then another etc etc.  But usually when this happens (because they nearly always occur when I'm lying on my back for some reason) I get really freaked and turn over or sit up or something then it stops.  But this time I just lay there and let them get on with it!  I didn't mind them and after about 6 or 7 they stopped!

I am trying to get to grips with the fact that runs of them are just ectopics in a row and nothing more.  I've stopped even bothering to think logically about them and just let them happen when they happen.  I really think the hot feeling is just as you say a link with the vagal nerve and is emotional rather than physical.  I know I sound quite layed back right now but if I suddenly got thousands of them or runs of them it would be a different story!!

I have just had a letter from the Hospital to advise me of my 24 hour monitor fitting, which is on the 8th March.  Then I see my cardio guy on the 16th so he will have the results by then.  I will let you know how it all turns out and I will also mention Atenelol because after what you told me and also what I have read it seems that a lot of people take it with excellent results.  I'm not sure that my cardiologist has ever mentioned this drug but I'm sure he will know about it so I will ask him if he thinks that it would be worth my while taking it for a period of time.

By the way just a small query!  How come a neurologist with more than 40 years practice has so much knowledge and experience of patients with heart irregularities!!!???  Did you used to be a heart specialist years ago or is it just part of your medical training?

Thanks again for taking the time to reply, your continued support and excellent information and advice.  I am forever grateful.

Very best wishes and kind regards

Rich

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Re: Another Q for RLR.... Please!
Reply #3 - Feb 16th, 2007, 10:33am
 
As for being old, I suppose it may indeed all just be a case of relevancy but I'll let you do the math; I joined the navy at 18 years old not long out of high school (only 11 years of education back in those days), attended the naval air academy and served as a combat pilot until age 26. After a couple of years more of college, I was accepted to medical school at 28 and completed my residency by the age of 35. I've since been in practice for nearly 41 years, more recently just part-time. So while I'd like to think of myself as a spring chicken, my crooked bones and aching joints are a constant reminder otherwise.  

Regarding my medical background, while all physicians must undergo training in general medicine for the first four years of medical school and internship, a subsequent elective residency as you know provides specialized training in the area of interest. It's not that I know a tremendous amount of knowledge regarding cardiology necessarily, but the specialization of neurology requires intensive understanding of the body's brain and entire wiring system, so to speak. In order to understand how that wiring system functions, it becomes unavoidably necessary to intimately understand the functions of the various systems controlled and under the influence of the brain and nervous system. And historically, there was a time about a century ago when the specialty of neurology almost absorbed the field of psychiatry, so it gives you an idea of how the two specialties are very closely related in some regards. I have personally found it to be one of the wisest decisions I've ever made regarding my professional career.

Finally, an education and professional career in medicine is, in reality, a commitment to lifelong learning. I still spend a good deal of my time perusing journals and occasionally attending conferences to stay abreast of the latest in treatment options and technology.

I'm glad to hear that you're working hard to put the palpitation events aside. They are indeed harmless and you'll live a full a healthy life. You should be aware that studies have been conducted that indicate persons with actual anxiety disorders tend to actually live long lives by comparison to statistical norms.

how 'bout that?

Best regards and Good Health
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saab
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Re: Another Q for RLR.... Please!
Reply #4 - Feb 16th, 2007, 2:21pm
 
Wow, what an interesting life you have had, RLR! I have always been very interested in psychology and due to my recent anxiety problems have taken an interest in cognitive therapy books. A long time ago I read several books by Oliver Sacks, like 'The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat'. Very interesting, but also incredibly moving.
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Dickyboy199
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Re: Another Q for RLR.... Please!
Reply #5 - Feb 17th, 2007, 12:17am
 
Hi RLR,

Thanks for sharing that with us.  You really have had a chequered career!  Wow a combat pilot at 18!  It's interesting that you were in the Naval Air Academy as my profession is in Air Traffic Control!  I've been doing this for nearly 20 years and I work in an Air Traffic Management centre which is based right next to a civil airport.  This is civil air traffic rather than military, but I do come into contact with military pilots and controllers from time to time in the course of my job and have every respect for them.

I can see now from your explanation how you have such knowledge of our complaint on here and that too I find fascinating.  It's also interesting to learn how much psychiatry is involved within the field of neurology.  You've obviously had a very interesting and satisfying career in the medical profession and this shows in your depth of knowledge and interest in all us ‘tickiky tick tockers’ on here!!

Best wishes

Rich
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angiebaby
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Re: Another Q for RLR.... Please!
Reply #6 - Feb 17th, 2007, 12:23pm
 
Hi RLR, thanks for all the great info i've been catching up on and i was quite shocked to read that people with anxiety can live long, thank goodness though.  I would have thought the opposite, as the saying goes 'scared to death' etc, etc.  And stress being so bad for our hearts and all that.  
Anyway i know about this wonderful site and your extensive knowledge and wonder if i may be a little bit cheeky.  Would i be able to ask you some questions about my main problem at this moment, dizziness and unreality, as i see a neurologist on the 7th March?
Angiebaby.
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saab
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Re: Another Q for RLR.... Please!
Reply #7 - Feb 17th, 2007, 12:52pm
 
Just to say Angie, that lots of anxiety sufferers seem to list dizziness as a symptom (though I've never had it myself). When I was super anxious about my heart I had a strong feeling of detachment from everything - my surroundings, my family. It was difficult to engage or even speak with people. I couldn't even play with the kids at times. I don't think this sense of unreality is uncommon amongst anxiety sufferers, or those who have suffered a trauma or shock. RLR will have more info though I'm sure.
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angiebaby
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Re: Another Q for RLR.... Please!
Reply #8 - Feb 17th, 2007, 1:11pm
 
Thanks Saab, but mine seems different.  I did see an ENT specialist who just looked in my ears and said i was fine!!  I'm sure he can't tell if i have menieres or vertigo from just looking in them.  He sent me for a neck xray which i had been asking for from my doctor on three occasions and had been ignored.  I had my neck xray there and then and two months later had the diagnoses of a curvature of the neck.  I know this in itself can cause dizziness but if this is the reason then surely something can make it better.
I walk unsteadily all the time, even if i just go to the loo.  I sometimes only have to move my eyes and the room spins.  My ears do have the fullness feelings at times and i think i do have sinus problems as well which won't help either.  It just seems so severe all the time.  If i turn over in bed the room spins, i can't walk up the corridor at work in a straight line or go through a door without hitting it or the frame.  It makes the unreality that i also have most of the time, since i had seroxat for a short while, even worse.  If i turn too quickly i have to hold on, most of the time it's just there, dizziness but sometimes for now reason when i'm sitting quite still WHOOSH everything spins.  This really frightens me and coupled with the severe unreality, no even recognizing my husband, is making my life pure hell.  The only reason i have panic attacks/anxiety now is because of this and the way it makes me feel.  I'm even thinking of changing my 18 year profession of being a nurse because i don't feel i can cope anymore and the stress of the job is probably not helping me.  The next concern i have is when i see the neurologist in March, he will probably want to do tests and things and i will be fine unless he wants to inject me with anything for a scan.  I know that an MRI can be done without the dye and that is fine, but if he wants to give me anything i just can't have it.  I really do not want to be difficult and really want the tests done so i can try and get my life back but since i was treated so badly with the GP's and was tried on medications that made me so ill, i'm too scared to take anything and this will induce a panic unfortunatly.  Sorry to ramble on but i'm really fed up with feeling this way, THIS IS NOT ME!!
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Re: Another Q for RLR.... Please!
Reply #9 - Feb 19th, 2007, 8:33am
 
Reply to Angiebaby:

Please feel free to ask your questions, express your concerns or describe your symptoms.

Best regards and Good Health

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angiebaby
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Re: Another Q for RLR.... Please!
Reply #10 - Feb 19th, 2007, 1:17pm
 
Thanks a lot.
Well as i've mentioned this dizziness does seem very, very extreme.  If i turn over in bed the room whooses around me, even with my eyes shut, i have to open them to 'ground' myself and the whoosing feeling is so intense at this point i get a lurch of sickness in my stomach but as soon as i open my eyes this stops.  The only time i have a panic attack now is when the symptoms start, and i get scared that i will fall or collapse.  I get up and sometimes i am ok others i have to hold onto things while i walk around the bedroom or else i will lose my balance.  If i look up the world spins and if i look at the floor the world spins, i can't turn around quickly or move my eyes quickly.  I know that all of these symptoms could be anxiety related but they do seem very extreme compared to what i've read by others.  My ears sometimes feel very full, even though there is no wax in them or any infection, they have been checked.  I get tinnitus and rumbling and whoosing noises most of the time, one at a time they will also shut off completely for no apparant reason.  Throughout these symptoms i have systematically checked my BP and it is always ok.  I can just be sitting and talking or sitting still and quiet and one of my ears will just shut off.  Everything echos and after about a minute or so it will 'come back', but it buzzes.  Loud noises hurt my ears very much and makes things much worse.  I have had a neck xray and i have a curvature of the neck, i know that this can cause dizziness also.  I get a lot of pains in my head and am sure i also have sinus problems, this in turn will not help.  I am going to see a neurologist on 7th march and i suppose that they will want to perform tests which will frighten me anyway but i really want some help with this.  I can't walk in a straight line and hit every door or frame that i walk through.  I understand that i have symptoms of anxiety and panic disorder and think that i have PTSD since my horrible operation two years ago, can these symptoms of dizziness just be linked to this or be something else that needs treatment.  Since i had my 3 day holter monitor and it has been proved that i have benign ectopics and premature firing i have had less ectopics which is good but i have had two really big ones tonight, i believe for no apparant reason either, and they 'hit me' right in the centre of my chest, going through to my back and radiating up my neck so i felt like i needed to swollow hard of cough, my hubby gets ectopics and for reassurance i asked if he had these sort of ectopics and he said no, this scared me again a little.  I have had 'big' ectopics before but i have not had any this weekend and i was feeling pretty good about that, then WHAM here's one that is a whopper and oh that wasn't enough, here have another one!!  These bighters really get me down!!  Anyway they were really strong and powerful ones and it worried me.  I do get dizziness when i'm just sitting still but very very occasional it is normally when i am moving, even if it is just my head or eyes.  Sorry to go on and on but i really value your opinion, thankyou for letting me ask you about all of this.
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Angiebaby.x
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Re: Another Q for RLR.... Please!
Reply #11 - Feb 19th, 2007, 2:35pm
 
You're not "going on" whatsoever and thank you for the post. Remember that this is your forum and as such, you are free to ask questions relative to health concerns in the hopes of a reply. I will always do my best to respond, but also remember that I qualify all of my answers with the caveat that follow-up is always necessary by your primary care physician in all cases where healthcare matters are concerned.

So the fact that you have an upcoming appointment is wise and don't be afraid in the least to undergo testing. It's the absolute best decision you can make when experiencing troublesome symptoms. So now let's get to the business of your symptoms.


Based upon your symptoms described, my first impression without any test results would be something known as Meneire's disease, or more formally called idiopathicendolymphatic hydrops (Whew!! long word). The symptoms of Ménière’s disease are episodic rotational vertigo (attacks of a spinning sensation), hearing loss, tinnitus (a roaring, buzzing, or ringing sound in the ear), and a sensation of fullness in the affected ear.

Tinnitus and fullness of the ear in Ménière’s disease may come and go with changes in hearing, occur during or just before attacks, or be constant. There may also be an intermittent hearing loss early in the disease, especially in the low pitches. Loud sounds may be uncomfortable and seem distorted in the affected ear. From all the Ménière’s disease’s symptoms, vertigo is usually the most troublesome.

Vertigo may last for 20 minutes to two hours or longer. During attacks, patients are usually unable to perform activities normal to their work or home life. Sleepiness may follow for several hours, and the off-balance sensation may last for days. Symptoms usually occur without warning as well.

That would be my impression, but testing is always necessary to rule out other causes.  I also don't want you to worry unnecessarily because I have many healthy patients with this disease who live normal, productive lives and the episodes are more of a nusiance than anything else. It won't shorten your life by even a day, so you can relax from that standpoint. More importantly, this is just an impression based upon your description, so don't take what I say too strictly until you've been formally examined and tests have been conducted. Severe anxiety can indeed mimic many of the symptoms, so it's just as likely that it could be the underlying cause as well.

Let us know how the tests turn out and we'll be here to help.

Best regards and Good Health
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angiebaby
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Re: Another Q for RLR.... Please!
Reply #12 - Feb 19th, 2007, 3:02pm
 
Thankyou very much for your reply, i really am most grateful for you taking the time to reply to me this quickly.  I will go to my appointment, and my panic will be with me i know, but i really want this sorting out.  I am scared about the probably up and coming tests but i suppose i will manage as many others do.  I have thought that it could be menieres disease myself, of course i hope that it isn't but still, if it is meant to be then there is nothing i can do about it.  Thanks again and i will indeed keep you informed.
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It take a minute to get anxiety and a lifetime to get rid of it!!
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