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RLR Me again...Vagus Nerve (Read 10497 times)
Typer
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RLR Me again...Vagus Nerve
Jan 17th, 2010, 10:25am
 
Dear RLR,

Firstly I wanted to say how wonderful it is of you to give us so much of your time and what would the world do without people like yourself?

Some of your posts to other people have been helpful, particularity those to Johnny whose symptoms are so like my own.

Before coming here, I would have said I am not an anxious person, certainly I was not aware of being anxious about much. I did/do have stress and have done for 3.5 years. I am a 59 year old woman, will be 60 this year.

In 2006 I had a heart scan as part of a private health check (in those days I could afford that) and it showed a minimal block in one of my heart ventricles  and I saw the scan pictures - it was minimal. I asked my GP if that could have worsened being as my cholesterol continues to be high and she practically screamed at me I did not have this block. I had to send her the actual results as she had either forgotten or had got muddled because she was also sure I had seen a cardiologist for the odd and irregular beats I have and the dizziness.I had not seen a cardiologist for these symptoms (she was having a bad day). Anyway, I did not get an answer as to whether the 2006 minimal heart block would have an effect on current symptoms.

What I am mostly intrigued by is the vagus nerve and prefer to think that this is more relevant to my symptoms. Are there any diagrams of the vagus nerve anywhere? The reason I ask is that, The ectopics are worse if I lean forward. My heart slows down if I sit for too long at the computer or anywhere in fact. If I lean over with a cushion tucked under my left arm pit, the ectopics, or thuds start.

I am dizzy a lot of the day - and I get strange feelings in my stomach before  have a bad bought of palps which all lead me to think vagus nerve if in fact it runs around these places. Oh and if I stretch up with my left arm, it causes a thunp in my chest and dizziness.

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Re: RLR Me again...Vagus Nerve
Reply #1 - Jan 18th, 2010, 4:10am
 
Okay, well it doesn't quite work like you might be envisioning. It's really not a matter of where the vagus nerve is located, but rather the fact that the central nervous system is in sort of a mildly chronic and  heightened state of activity together with factors that may predispose a person to experiencing palpitations.

The vagus nerve actually innervates the GI tract as the pneumogastric nerve, much like a street can change names as you drive along it. I would suggest that the palpitations are far more a factor of bending over and compressing the abdomen, or alternatively stretching upward, rather than anything to do with tucking a pillow under your left arm. If there is air trapped in the lumen of the intestines, particularly where it presses upward against the diaphragm or undergoes a change in its position within the intestines or bowel, this can cause palpitations to occur through the left vagus nerve.

It's not as though the nerve is actually being rubbed or coming into contact with anything. We're talking more about neurotransmitter activity, in this case acetylcholine, being induced to travel along the vagus nerve to its terminal points, ie the heart, lungs, larnyx, etc., where it results in a palpitation among other things.

The reason you heart slows down to a noticable extent is due to the lack of feedback to the vagus nerve which results in lowered vagal tone. Soldiers who stand at attention too long often suffer from this consequence and it results in lightheadedness or actual syncope (fainting) if not corrected by taking action to restore vagal tone. In fact, this consequence can occur under a variety of contexts, which for instance explains why some people faint to a sudden frightening stimulus or when jumping up from a lying position after being bedridden for a day or so. Even the flu or other certain factors can cause vagal tone to be disturbed or lowered.

As for the "block," we actually use this term to describe more extensive degrees of latency for electrical signals to pass through the tissues of the heart, particularly around the ventricles. I'm not certain what you were observing on the scan, but unless it was using contrast to reveal a vascular narrowing in one of the vessels I would question what you were actually looking at, particularly since it would not be an actual blockade within the oriface or cavity of a ventricle.

Your symptoms would indeed be associated with benign palpitations induced by inappropriate vagus nerve stimulation and nothing to do with any type of pathology.

Best regards and Good Health



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Re: RLR Me again...Vagus Nerve
Reply #2 - Jan 19th, 2010, 11:33am
 
Thank you. So it is more of a neurological signal.

The report from the heart scan (It was a CT scan) showed mild plaque in my left ventricular - Calcification and says

Left Anterior Descending: Lesions 1, Volume 6.69, Calcium score 13.15 / mild plaque burden

I wonder why now...that is why is it that bending forward or pressure on my left rib, or in fact stretching my left arm up now causes these strange heart thuds.

I understand what you describe "acetylcholine, being induced to travel along the vagus nerve to its terminal points, ie the heart, lungs, larnyx, etc., where it results in a palpitation among other things." What baffles me and I guess all of us, is: why me, why now

Sorry I do not expect you to answer this.


I am so confused because for a while I had what seemed like irritable bowel as well, which has calmed (I would like to say gone).

I guess what I am looking for is hope...hope that they will go as quick as they came. I also need to understand why they have appeared.

I cope with them quite well....what I find so difficult to cope with the constant feeling of giddiness, which seems worsened by certain lights, especially fluorescent. I also hate it when I get a few ectopics in a row and feel faint. This has happened while crossing a busy road which was very frightening.

One more question if I may: Is there any truth in the idea that magnesium can help palps and reduce cholesterol?


PS: Have not slept properly for 3 nights. I never used to get them at night but now, I am exhausted by them
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« Last Edit: Jan 20th, 2010, 5:34am by Typer »  

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Re: RLR Me again...Vagus Nerve
Reply #3 - Jan 20th, 2010, 5:35am
 
Just moving this up for when RLR...my only tranquillizer right now, is able to answer
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Re: RLR Me again...Vagus Nerve
Reply #4 - Jan 20th, 2010, 3:35pm
 
Okay, the LAD, or anterior interventricular branch of the left coronary artery, which is what is being described in the scan results is demonstrating mild evidence of calcification but I have to tell you that the reference value is quite unremarkable and somewhat common depending upon age.

Most importantly, this incidental finding has absolutely nothing to do with the presence of the palpitations that you are experiencing. Don't mix the two premises. They are entirely unrelated.

When patients used to ask me the very common question "why me?," it's really not that much of a mystery at all. As all people age, stress factors and the body's response to them change very naturally. It is necessary to make comparisons between where you were when you didn't experience the palpitations and the more recent timeframe. I think that unless you're unaware of the broad circumstances which can influence this change, you'll see that the necessary criteria is present for you to become affected.

Regardless, they're harmless. Your scan does not raise my eyebrows as well. It's a relatively common finding.

Magnesium cannot make any type of effective reduction in LDL cholesterol and it's influence on rate and prominence of the heart beat is ancillary in nature. Further, it is entirely dissociated from the origin and underlying cause of the palpitations and you'll find no them to generally be undetered by the consumption of magnesium supplements. I have cautioned others also that taking supplements in the absence of being able to determine relative serum levels is not advisable and these compounds are not regulated as drugs are, so in some rare instances, you can produce toxic effects rather than the desirable ones.

You'll be fine.

Best regards and Good Health





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Re: RLR Me again...Vagus Nerve
Reply #5 - Jan 23rd, 2010, 3:28pm
 
As always, thank you so much for the time you spend explaining, which helps tremendously.

Even so, I have had the most terrible two days of palps..to the point where I feel so depressed at the thought I would have these now for life. If they were once an hour, or once every half an hour, I could maybe manage that....but they are every few minutes, sometimes constant and . The dizzy feelings come and go but mostly they are there. These have led to severe panic attacks and I cannot even escape them in sound sleep.

They are not around first thing but start around 1 hour after rising and just do not let up. I can now not shower without my husband being around so I bath and crawl out sideways as the dizziness is so so bad.
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Re: RLR Me again...Vagus Nerve
Reply #6 - Jan 29th, 2010, 11:14am
 
The depressed feeling and the thought of 'what if this never stops' is an extremely common anxiety attack symptom, as is the dizziness. When I was having a really rough period with the benign palpitations I kept hearing that they were anxiety attack related, but my idea of an attack was the full blown feeling like you can't breathe/tight chest/passing out kind. Panic and anxiety attacks can actually be surprisingly subtle... look up panic attacks and general anxiety disorder and I think you'll see what I mean, it did wonders for me, just being aware that all the strange things I was going through were probably caused by mere stress alone. Nothing to fear but fear itself as it were!

I think it's highly likely your dizziness might be the actual onset of the panic attack rather than the trigger... at least that's what it was when I had it.
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Re: RLR Me again...Vagus Nerve
Reply #7 - Jan 31st, 2010, 5:53pm
 
I am coming to believe that is right...but it is so weird that I can be having an ordinary day and thhen out of the blue, wham I am dizzy and have all the other symptoms
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Re: RLR Me again...Vagus Nerve
Reply #8 - Feb 3rd, 2010, 5:58pm
 
Panic attacks can nail you out of the blue... I used to get them bad when I was younger. Now I rarely get them. But I noticed when I do it's usually about a two day delay between something very stressful happening in my life and then I start getting symptoms... it seems odd, but predictable almost like clockwork. If you're under constant stress, subconscious or not, it can mess with you at any time... chances are worrying about your health is what's making you feel like crud.

Health anxiety is a very real thing and can interfere with your life, believe me... It's best to find faith in something to assure yourself that you will be alright, whether it's your doctors or God (for me it's both).

Oh, these dizzy spells, are they real dizziness (lightheadedness, feeling like you're going to faint) or vertigo (feeling like you're losing your balance and the room is tilting or spinning)? Both can be caused by anxiety, but I had a nasty case of BPPV once (benign paroxysmal positional vertigo if I remember correctly)... it would hit and the room would feel like it was violently spinning any time I looked up or leaned my head even the slightest bit to the left. I had to grab on to something to keep from falling over.

It's caused by particles, usually tiny hairs or such floating free in the canals of your inner ear that are used for balance. If you're having vertigo spells and you notice they hit most often when you're in certain positions, its probably this. It can seem to go away and then strike again out of the blue because sometimes the particle(s) can get stuck for awhile and then break loose without warning again later, causing chaos even when you're not in a position that normally aggravates it.

If its BPPV it can be tested for by a general doctor or an ear-nose-throat specialist very easily by tilting your head through a series of positions, and usually easily fixed by a similar exercise of head tilting.
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« Last Edit: Feb 4th, 2010, 11:13am by Kalah »  
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